Takes All Kinds (episode #1627)

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it. I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette. Doing crossword puzzles is a great mental exercise,

And one of the reasons that these puzzles are such a good workout for your brain

Is that crosswords are less about what you know and more about how you think about what you know.

For example, if I need a three-letter word and the clue is, it has a certain ring to it,

The answer is tub.

It has a certain ring to it.

Oh, because it’s the dirty ring of soap and stuff that’s left when you’re washing the tub.

Got it.

Yes, yes.

So you look at that word ring and you have to think about it in a different way.

Or, for example, if you need a four-letter word that means dog holders.

Dog holders?

Four-letter word?

Four letters.

Paws?

Maybe.

The one I was looking for was buns.

It’s a different kind of dog.

Oh, hot dog holders, buns.

Gotcha.

Or one more for you.

If I’m looking for a five-letter word that means heavy breather at the movies, five letters.

Heavy breather at the movies.

I don’t know.

I am your father.

Oh, a Vader.

I see.

A vader.

And all of those clues are taken from published puzzles.

And I found them in a great new book about crosswords.

And I want to talk about that book a little more later in the show.

Give us a call toll-free in the United States and Canada, 877-929-9673.

And if you want to talk to us through your keyboard, there are lots of ways to reach us.

Go to our website at waywordradio.org slash contact.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Thank you so much.

She was waiting for the setup

I was

This is Angela calling from Albany Township, Maine

Hey Angela

Well I wanted to talk to you both

Because I know you really enjoy slang

And what all the youths are saying these days

And one of the words I wanted to talk to you guys about was to eat

Okay we’re there we’ll be right over right so I was born in the mid-80s and growing up

We would say you ate it and that meant your face hit the pavement or you’re doing an activity you

Fell and you, you know, mouth to ground. But the kids these days are saying eat in a positive way.

So I was working on a show with some younger actors and I kept hearing them say like, yes,

She ate. And I was like, she ate. And they’re like, yeah, she’s eating this choreography. She

Ate that song like she is eating. And I was like, okay, that’s interesting. And one of them

Told me a haircut I did was awesome. And they said, you ate that haircut. And I was like,

Thank you, because I’m assuming that’s a compliment. But I just thought it was really interesting.

So Angela, do you do you cut hair for actors then?

I do. Yeah, that’s my that’s my job.

Really? You cut hair for actors. This is like we’re talking regional theater,

Traveling theater what are you doing the most recent was the mean girls tour that’s out right

Now okay but yeah so i do i do hair and wigs for broadway shows and different tours around the

Country oh how cool and when you’re really good at they say boy angela you really ate that

Yeah they were that i was like you ate that haircut and i was like thank you

So instead of a face plant, it’s something that you’re really good at.

Yeah.

And it made me think I was texting my friend Tim, who turned me on to your podcast.

And I was like, it’s just interesting because now as I think of it, you can be eaten up by an audience and they’re loving everything you’re doing.

They’re savoring it.

Or they can eat you alive.

Oh, yeah.

Especially if you’re chewing the scenery.

Yes, and chewing the scenery, that’s like she’s overacting.

She’s being, you know, they’re being over the top.

It’s not necessarily a good or a bad thing, but.

And if somebody else misses their cue, you can be all laid up in anger.

Yes.

That’s funny.

I found examples going back to 2008, and it can be transitive where you ate something,

Meaning you did well at that thing, or it can be intransitive.

It just means like your general personality and character and presence of being is awesome.

You really eat, Angela.

Well, I think y’all eat too.

Thank you.

We’re old fuddy-duddies using the teen slang.

It’s just we’re ruining it for everyone.

Right, exactly.

But, you know, if I can be linguistic about it for a second, ways of saying positive things like this ebb and flow.

And you’re always going to get these new ones coming along every 10, 20 years or so.

It’s just something new to replace the old thing.

Different ways to say great or excellent have always come along as long as slang has been tracked.

Right. It’s so fascinating. I love it.

Yeah, it’s been a really sick call.

It’s so sick. Yeah, right. This is the bomb.

Oh, I love it.

All right.

Angela, well, call us on the road on your wig tour and let us know what else is happening in Slang World.

Awesome.

Thank you both so much.

All right.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Well, Slang in the Workplace.

Share yours with us, 877-929-9673.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Hello.

My name is Michelle Solomon.

I’m calling you from Pembroke Pines, Florida.

Well, welcome to the show.

What can we do for you, Michelle?

Well, thank you so much.

And I was just wondering, why do people say break a leg to performers instead of simply saying good luck?

And also, what is the origin of that phrase?

Do you work in theater?

No, I don’t.

I don’t.

Okay, but it’s just something you know from TV and movies or some other point of your life?

Well, I love theaters, and I go all the time, and I wind up telling the performers, break a leg.

And I had no idea why I was telling them to break their leg.

And the ones that are not accustomed to that phrase gave me, they look at me like, oh, why did she tell me to break my leg?

Oh, it’s such a theatrical tradition.

I wonder, I’m surprised that somebody didn’t know about it.

Were they dancers?

Well, you know, I think it’s strictly Americans.

I think this is really strictly for Americans.

I go to a lot of the West Indian shows.

I love the Caribbean performers, and they are not too familiar with that phrase.

There we go.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

To be honest with you, I’m not sure if it’s only an American phrase.

I’m just assuming, because it’s not a common thing to say to a Caribbean.

Performer. Yeah, it’s not exclusively American, although I think it might have become more common

Here. Saying break a leg when somebody is about to perform instead of saying good luck connects to a

Larger folklore tradition of trying to avoid the devil or bad spirits who might hear your wishes

For good luck and somehow try to spoil the action, to ruin the endeavor. And so there are a lot of

Folklore traditions like this throughout all of the cultures of the world where you just don’t

Say good luck to someone because a bad entity may try to ruin it so and it’s not just english

There’s the german house on the beinbruch which means break your neck and leg and there’s the

Italian bocca alupo which means into the mouth of the wolf to which the correct response isn’t

Thank you.

It’s crepialupo, which means let the wolf die.

So there’s a bunch of these.

That is interesting.

Yeah.

Martha asked about dancers because there’s a tradition there, Martha.

Yes, yes.

Toy, toy, toy.

Especially in opera, people will say that to each other.

So as Grant was saying, it’s basically you’re doing the opposite of what you really want in case some evil spirit overhears you and tries to boil your plans.

I’m surprised the people that dance folklore dances, that’s the dances.

Those are the performers that I go to all the time.

I’m really surprised they had no idea that it was actually pertaining to luck

Because they danced to spirits and things like that.

Well, you know, Michelle, there’s fieldwork there for you if you want to do it.

I think there might be some traditions that they simply haven’t shared.

Perhaps they have their own ways of saying good luck that aren’t any of these.

I will find out.

And if I do find out, I’ll be happy to share it with you.

Yeah, that’s delightful.

That’d be delightful.

You did ask about the origin of the expression.

And I want to say there are a lot of false stories about the origin of break a leg.

It doesn’t come from John Wilkes Booth, who shot Abraham Lincoln in the Ford’s theater and then broke his leg when he jumped to the stage.

And it does not come from the great French actress Sarah Bernhardt, who had her leg amputated in 1915.

Is really none of the fanciful stories you hear about break a leg are probably true.

So we don’t really know where it comes from except from this folklore tradition

About saying the opposite of what you really want.

Well, thank you so much for bringing clarity to this statement.

Now when I say it, I’ll know exactly what I’m saying.

I appreciate you taking my call and letting me know about breaking a leg.

What about radio personalities like yourself?

Can I tell you to break a leg or not?

Well, what you say to us is, don’t forget to turn on your mic.

And the second one is, don’t wear your mic to the bathroom.

It’s been done before.

Let’s just put it that way.

But thanks for thinking to us.

You take care of yourself, all right?

Thank you.

Your show is great.

I enjoy it.

And I will continue to share with my friends and family.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you, Michelle.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Bocca Lupo, into the mouth of the wolf.

Love it.

877-929-9673.

We heard from Steve Ryan in Melbourne, Australia.

He heard our discussion about the word fossicking, which means to rummage about.

And in Australia and New Zealand, fossicking literally means digging about for gemstones in abandoned mining excavations.

And that reminded Steve of another slang term used there.

And that term is emu.

Now, of course, as you know, Grant, an emu is Australia’s largest native bird.

But in Australia, an emu is also somebody who picks up discarded betting tickets on a race course, hoping that they’re going to find something that’s, you know, valuable.

Oh, so interesting. Yeah, they call those stupors in the U.S.

Oh, do they really?

Yeah, I think there’s other names for them, but stupors is the one I know.

Yeah, the people who hope that somebody has accidentally thrown out a betting ticket that has value.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In Australia, it’s an emu because they’re bending over in the same way that an emu will look for food.

That’s so interesting. We love to hear the slang from other parts of the world.

Share yours with us. words@waywordradio.org.

More about what you say and why you say it.

Stick around for more of A Way with Words.

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

And Grant, who’s that other guy over there sitting there sort of elbowing closer and closer?

I don’t know, but every time I move, he moves the same way.

It’s kind of a giant mime character.

And he’s trapped in a trivia booth? Weird.

It’s John Chaneski, our trivia guy.

I’m just trying to get close to this microphone.

I did it finally. Terrific.

Hi, guys. It’s me, John Chaneski.

Good to see you guys again for a quiz.

Listen, you know, we don’t do a lot of anagramming here because it’s more of a visual thing,

But I thought we could certainly do it if we constrain ourselves to teeny tiny itsy bitsy little anagrams.

We’re going to start with three letter ones.

If I said, for example, I must choose a cooking vessel,

That sentence clues two short words that are anagrams, opt and pot.

Oh.

Choose and cooking vessel.

Let’s try this.

If it’s too hard, I’ll sit down and make something easier.

Okay.

Tis going to be easy.

There you go.

Very good.

Now, break out a pencil and a piece of paper.

That might help for this.

Okay, here we go.

That is an appropriate amount of butter.

Apt and pat.

Yes, an apt and…

Apt amount of…

An apt pat.

Yes, an apt pat.

Apt is appropriate and pat is an amount of butter.

Very good.

Before we have lunch, I want to hear all the latest gossip.

Before we eat, spill the tea.

Yes, spill the tea, please, before we eat.

I had to duck down when that bird flew toward me in the barn.

Duck?

Oh, let’s see.

The owl made me go down low?

Yes, owl and low.

Oh, goodness.

If we create underwater cities, how will we handle mass transit?

Sub buses.

Yes, a bus that is a sub or a sub that is a bus.

Either way.

It looks like pop has put two and two together.

Dad can add.

Dad can add, yes.

D-A-D and A-D-D.

Very good.

What’s that?

Too challenging for you guys?

Okay, let’s drop a letter and do some two-letter anagrams.

Whoa.

These are all Scrabble tournament legal words.

That guy seems unimpressed.

He said, eh.

Eh.

Kind of like as impressed you are with this clue.

Eh, it’s all right.

Finally, you may like a short dash, but I prefer a long one.

Me? I prefer an M dash.

Yes, very good at M dash.

You guys were great.

You did fantastic with those tiny, teeny, itsy-bitsy little anagrams.

Congratulations.

Oh, thank you so much, John.

Todd, John, you’re really good at that.

Yes, thank you.

Very good.

I’ll see you next time.

All right, take care.

Give our best to the family.

Bye, John.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

We have a quiz with John every week on this program, but we also like to talk to you,

And there are a ton of ways to reach us.

You can find them all on our website at waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, how’s it going?

My name is Amanda Smith, and I live in Tucson, Arizona.

And I’m so excited to be on your show.

Oh, my goodness.

This is great.

We’re excited to have you, Amanda.

So I was calling in because I have a friend who always uses this phrase, feed two birds with one seed, which is, of course, a nonviolent alternative for kill two birds with one stone, which is hard for me to even say.

And so I was calling because I always assumed that she invented this phrase because she’s a very caring and thoughtful, creative person.

And so I know now that that’s not the case, but I don’t know where it originated.

And I wondered also if you guys had other suggestions for idiom alternatives that were less violent or more up to date or other things like that.

Clever phrases that we can use to replace some of these more outdated ones.

So instead of saying kill two birds with one stone, that is do something really super efficiently, she says feed two birds with one seed, right?

That’s right.

You know what, Amanda?

I have been saying that myself for decades now, ever since a friend of mine who grew up in Brazil said that’s what she said growing up, feed two birds with one seed.

I understand why people want to do that because of the reasons that you suggested.

There are different ways to say it.

I’m looking at a 1737 collection of English proverbs that has some alternatives that were used back in the 18th century to stop two mouths with one morsel and to make two friends with one gift.

I mean, I choose to say feed two birds with one seed.

Some people say feed two birds with one scone, which rhymes.

You know, I can also see the other side of that, which is that it’s really baked into the language.

You know, it’s an old, old, old expression.

I don’t know.

Grant has been around for hundreds of years.

Yeah.

Just this idea of killing the birds, though.

I can get where people are put off by that violence, put off by that verb.

It is easy, with just a tiny bit of practice, to replace those expressions in your speech if you want to.

The effort that we’re going to go to, Amanda, to replace those is a lot.

And it takes a really long time to force out those old expressions.

I know PETA, the animal rights organization, was one that suggested feed two birds with one scone, S-C-O-N-E.

We had a listener in Sam in Healy, Alaska, suggested save two birds with one stone,

Which I think the ones that are close to the original have the best chance of success.

So the idea with saving two birds is that you’re throwing the rock, but not at the birds, just to scare them away.

And you’ll still keep them out of your garden or your crops or whatever just by throwing the stone, which is your goal with killing maybe in the first place.

Interesting.

I think this is really thought-provoking, and we’re going to have a lot of reaction to this.

I’ve seen other attempts to replace violent language involving animals.

And Lord knows that the English language is in many ways an awful record of how humans have treated animals through the years.

You know, language from cockfighting or horse racing.

I mean, beat a dead horse.

You know, some people now say feed a fed horse, you know, which is, I don’t know that that’s going to work.

I don’t know that people will pick that up.

Or instead of bring home the bacon, bring home the bagels.

Oh, yeah, that was another one PETA recommended.

Sometimes it feels like doing too much mental gymnastics.

I don’t know.

I’m conflicted about this.

What do you think, Amanda?

Well, I’m definitely a proponent of everybody using the language that matches their personal values.

And I think that it’s nice to have alternatives that are gentler for those of us who are like more of a gentle nature.

But I also really appreciate the roots and culture that some of these phrases have.

I mean, it’s interesting to think about that phrase coming from protecting a garden, which is something I think you said, Grant.

It’s also really interesting to me to think about how your friend that you originally heard the alternative was coming from Brazil.

So how there are all these different ways of essentially saying the same thing, depending on where you come from.

Right. And I don’t think that it was necessarily a Portuguese phrase. She just happened to pick it up while she was there during her childhood. But I think what’s also key about that story is that it changed the way that I use the language personally. And I have had that experience as well. When I use that phrase, you know, there’s a little light bulb that goes on over some people’s heads and they pick it up as well.

So you may be helping feed two birds with one seed to go viral, Amanda.

Well, that was somewhat the goal.

I’m not going to lie.

And I’m going to start using feed a fed horse.

So I know we’re going to hear about this from our listeners.

Strong opinions probably on both sides of that.

So I really appreciate your starting a conversation about it.

Thanks so much for taking my call and keep up the wonderful work.

Thank you so much.

Our pleasure, Amanda. Call us again sometime.

Okay. Bye-bye.

Take care.

You can reach two hosts with one call, 877-929-9673, or you can reach them both in email words@waywordradio.org.

In many Spanish-speaking countries, if you’re thinking obsessively about something, you know, replaying it over and over in your head, somebody might say to you, no te comas el coco, which literally means don’t eat the coconut.

And in this case, coconut is slang for head, you know, so it’s like don’t consume your head.

Consume your head, that’s interesting.

What is it again in Spanish?

No te comas el coco.

What do they say out your way in your language? 877-929-9673.

Or talk to us on social media. All those addresses are on our website at waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hello, Grant. This is Travis. I’m calling from Orlando, Florida.

Hi, Travis in Orlando. Welcome to the show.

What’s going on, Travis?

I knew you were the ones to turn to after. Short story. I went to Mexico City on a tourist adventure. We went to a culinary street tour of food and we went to a chef where we learned it was a cooking class and taught by this chef who taught us all these wonderful things about Mexican cuisine.

And in the process told us something that blew everyone’s mind.

Of course, she said, does everybody know where the term quesadilla comes from?

And everybody’s like, of course, the Spanish word for cheese, queso and tortilla, right?

She said, no, it comes from, I believe it was an ancient Mexican language,

Nahuatl or something.

It doesn’t come from queso and tortilla.

And we were just like, oh, my goodness, I can’t wait to go back and blow all my friends’ minds at home, too.

And that was the thing to remember from the rest of the trip.

On the flight back, I just did a quick Google and got an inkling that that actually may have been some sort of fake story.

And maybe did this chef get the wool pulled over her eyes as well?

What’s right here? I know who to call.

Travis, you’re right to be suspicious.

There is, in fact, a meme that’s circulating on the web that has the supposed etymology of quesadilla.

You know, it’s kind of a shame because there are so many wonderful examples of food words that do derive from Nahuatl,

Like chili and chipotle and avocado and chocolate and cocoa and what else, Grant? Tomato, tamales.

Yeah, all the food words, of course.

Yeah, all these wonderful food words.

And maybe you talked about that in your cooking class.

Well, this word that’s been floating around, I think it’s ketsaditson or something like that.

Ketsaditson does not appear to be Nahuatl.

And when I saw this floating around a few weeks ago, I decided to reach out to a friend of ours, Dr. John Schwaller, who is executive director of the Association of Nahuatl Scholars.

So if anybody would know, I figure he would.

And he pointed out several reasons why this quesadilla is probably not the origin.

For one thing, there’s no letter D in that language.

And also, in the 15th century in Spain, we see these sweet cheesecakes that are called quesadas.

And quesadilla was a kind of cheese empanada that has a name that literally translates as a little thing made with cheese.

And the best Spanish etymological dictionaries out there don’t attribute it to Nahuatl.

In fact, a little interesting sidebar is the fact that there was no cheese used by Nahuatl speakers originally because they had no domesticated animals that could be milked.

They had dogs, but no animals that could provide milk for cheese like sheep or cows or goats.

Apparently, there’s an old word in Nahuatl that just means folded tortillas, and it doesn’t sound anything like quesadilla.

But all of that said, you may have found in Mexico City that if you’re ordering a quesadilla and you want cheese in it,

You have to specify, I want cheese in it.

Yeah.

Right, Grant?

Did you have that experience?

Yeah, same experience.

I went to Mexico City with my family, and I had some very good quesadillas with picadillo, but there was no cheese in there.

Right.

You have to ask for it if you want.

And that was a fact that did blow my mind, but was, in fact, true as we witnessed and saw as we walked around.

So, very cool.

Let’s clarify one thing here.

That I-Y-A suffix isn’t from tortilla.

And in fact, tortilla and quesadilla share that suffix, which means little.

It’s a diminutive.

Okay.

So it’s queso plus that suffix, not queso plus part of the word tortilla.

Okay, okay.

This has been an honor to learn about this and get to the bottom of it finally.

Thank you so much for sharing your food adventure with us and call us again sometime.

Please do.

Oh, yes, I definitely will.

Thank you so much for everything you do.

All right, bye-bye.

Bye, Travis.

Okay, bye-bye.

Food and language, a perfect marriage, and Martha and I would love to go to that wedding.

Call us with your food word questions, 877-929-9673, or email words@waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, how are you?

My name is Marcy, and I’m calling from Charlotte, North Carolina.

Welcome to the show, Marcy.

What can we do for you?

Thank you.

Well, I have a little story that I want to share.

My sister and I, we are very close.

And so if anything comes up, we can always, you know, share our feedback.

She typically says that she wants to touch bases.

And I was taken aback a little bit when she first said that.

And I said, I think it’s actually supposed to be touch base.

Anytime I want to connect with someone, I say I want to touch base with this person.

And when my sister said touch bases I thought I don’t think you got that right but a couple weeks

Later someone else said touch bases and then a couple months later after that someone said

Listen I I can’t wait to touch bases with you and I thought oh my goodness is this me

Is this regional I’m not sure what this is by touch bases they mean to make contact and

Communicate with each other, catch up, that kind of thing? Is that what they meant?

Yes.

What are you picturing when you say touch base?

I’m picturing somebody, you know, running from the first base to the second base to the third

Base, but never all four bases at the same time. So even the visual image that I have in my mind

Is you get to a base and you kind of touch it and you stay there until you can go to the next one.

Yeah, so you’re making contact with the base, in other words.

You’re touching it with your foot, usually.

Right.

Yeah, there may be the influence of baseball because, as you said,

You touch a base and you make contact with the base,

Although we’re not entirely sure that it comes from baseball.

People have also theorized that maybe it comes from touching base like in the old game of hide

And seek you know if you’re hiding and it is looking for you if you you run and touch base

Then you’re safe so the truth is we’re really not sure of the origin of this but you are correct

That it’s far more common to say touch base rather than to say touch bases we don’t know the origin

For sure, but probably it has been influenced at least by those two games.

I would guess that touch bases is a reformulation by people who assumed it had something to do

With baseball. And in my experience, touch bases has a slightly different connotation.

It’s about not only contacting someone, reaching out to them, but it’s also about running through

A list or running through some to-dos or going through a procedure or things that have to

Happen in order.

Oh, so you’re touching all the bases then.

You’re making the rounds.

Yeah, touching all the bases.

Oh, that’s interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I got it.

I feel a sense of relief now just knowing that.

Yay!

Yay!

That it’s not an either or, it’s a both and.

And, I mean, my sister and I both are correct in that sense.

And that it’s neat showing how language can evolve and incorporate.

Right.

Absolutely.

That’s what we try to talk about on the show.

It’s not bad.

It’s just different.

Thank you.

Thank you both.

All right.

Take care.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

877-929-9673 is toll-free in the United States and Canada.

And you can find all the ways to talk to us on social media on our website at waywordradio.org.

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

I mentioned at the top of the show that I wanted to talk about a book about crossword puzzles.

It’s called Crossword Ease, A Guide to the Weird and Wonderful Language of Crossword Puzzles.

It’s by David Buxpan, who is a crossword puzzle constructor himself,

And his work has appeared in places such as the New York Times.

And this book is all about crossword puzzles, their history, and the language particular to crosswords.

And it has a lot of interesting trivia, and there are loads and loads of tips to sharpen your puzzle-solving skills.

Now, the book itself takes a little bit of getting used to, and I’m going to try to explain it.

The text is straightforward, but every couple of sentences or so, one of the words will be in boldface in all caps.

And then nearby in the margin in much smaller letters will be actual crossword puzzle clues for that particular word.

So the book itself is kind of a puzzle. It’s kind of meta in that way.

That sounds like just the thing that a puzzler would make.

Yes, yes, it really does.

And so you can read the book straight through if you want to, but it’s a whole lot more fun to stop at those bolded words and check out the clues in the margins.

For example, at one point he happens to use the word sand, S-A-N-D, and it’s bolded.

So you go to the margin and you’ll see the word sand along with the clues that have been used for that word in actual published puzzles.

And in this book, there are a couple of clues for sand, one of which is beach blanket with a question mark.

Right, sand blanketing the beach.

Okay.

Right.

And the other one, which I really love, is ocean lining.

Oh, yes, of course.

It lines the floor of the ocean.

Yeah, it’s brilliant.

And again, you have to think about these words in a totally different way.

It’s an exercise in creativity.

So this book will help you understand how crossword constructors think and how they come up with some of those amazing puns and those clues that just make you smack your forehead.

Once you figure them out. And for those of us who are crossword novices, there are whole sections on

Crossword ease itself. That is, all those little words that keep showing up again and again in

Crossword puzzles, which are really useful to know. They can really make doing those puzzles a whole

Lot more enjoyable. You know, you get a little toehold in the puzzles with those little bitty

Words. So the book is called Crossword Ease. It’s by David Buckspan. That’s B-U-K-S-Z-P-A-N.

And I should also add that he’s constructed a dozen progressively difficult crosswords

That he includes in this book. So you can try out your skills right there.

Well, we will link to that book on our website at waywordradio.org. And if you’ve got some

Orts or want to talk about all the vowel-rich words for lava that are used in crosswords,

Well, we’re your people. 877-929-9673.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, hello. I’m Wilson from Charleston, South Carolina.

Well, hello, Wilson. Welcome to A Way with Words.

Welcome. What can we do for you?

Hi. Thank you so much. I’ve been wondering for a long time about the word conversate.

I mean, it’s a word that I really use more in childhood and really teenage years.

But I didn’t really know until I got a lot older that it really wasn’t a word or wasn’t proper English.

How would I use it?

Like kind of in our culture, when we would say, hey, like, let’s conversate over some business.

You know, it was a term that would be used instead of like conversation or converse.

We would use conversate.

And even in, like, I’m married now, but in the dating stage, kind of in the urban culture, it’s kind of, the word is cool.

It really is cool.

So we’d say something like, you know, the music’s really loud over here, sister.

Well, how about you come over here and let’s conversate together?

You know, so.

I can just see you on the dating scene, Wilson.

That sounds pretty smooth.

It’s smooth, but it’s a lot smoother than converse.

You know, you can’t come over here and converse.

That’s not smooth and smooth.

Conversate.

You conversate.

You know, in our culture, a word has to have some rhythm and some color and smoothness to it,

And conversate has it, but converse and conversation doesn’t have that.

So why isn’t conversate?

Let’s conversate about this, guys.

All right.

We’ve got answers for you here.

We’ll conversate about this.

I think you made a great case.

I was glad you directed yourself about it not being a word because it absolutely is a word to conversate.

And actually, it’s got 200 plus years of history in English.

Ooh.

And another thing that going in favor of conversate is that it is more closely spelled like the Latin verb it comes from than the word converses.

Wow.

Yeah, but they do come from exactly the same root.

So converse and conversate come from the same root.

So what’s happened with conversate here is it has its own life.

It’s not a corrupted version necessarily of converse,

Although part of it might be what’s known as a back formation

Where somebody took the noun conversation and then said,

Oh, maybe there’s a verb conversate, and then they began to use it that way.

But the verb conversate has existed on its own.

It doesn’t require the support of the verb converse in order to exist

And have a fully-fledged, full-word life.

That said, there is also, and you really narrowed in on this,

There is a meaning difference between the two.

Conversate is about emotional or lively conversation.

Conversating is more about chatting or discussing personal things

Or kind of a one-on-one.

Converse is formal and could be about anything.

You could converse with a clerk at a store about your purchase and the problem with it,

But you would never conversate with a clerk at a store about your purchase and the problem with it.

So there’s definitely a register and tone and meaning difference there between these two verbs.

There’s a reason we have both.

Wilson, you’re making me feel like it’s a warmer word than converse.

It just feels warmer and friendlier.

Yes, I do feel that way.

But, I mean, I had to just abandon it when I became older and somebody corrected me and said,

Conversate’s not proper English.

And then from that day on, I stopped.

Send them to us.

We’ll correct them.

But let me just say, so it sounds like you’re African American.

Yes.

And it’s, Conversate, it’s more common in the black community than it is in the white community,

Although it is used among white Southerners to a degree.

And so that’s also part of it.

There’s longstanding bias against non-mainstream dialects in the United States.

And people want to refuse that these dialects, including Black English, can have their own words or have the words they use more often than the mainstream dialect.

And so that’s part of what’s happening here.

When people rip on Conversate, they’re basically saying that comes from a dialect I don’t speak and I won’t allow it.

Wow. But it’s not like it’s not a word.

That’s right. Exactly right.

And conversate, as you well know as a speaker of Black English,

Conversate is not the only word that is treated this way.

So many other words. Exactly.

Oh, wow. This is amazing.

You called the right place.

This is fantastic.

Yes. I saw it did.

All right. Wow.

I’m glad we got to conversate about something like this.

So hopefully I can start using it again

And increase my cool factor with my wife now.

You landed your wife with that cool talk, so something worked out for you.

Yes, it worked out, and I had to abandon it.

Oh, boy.

So now, look, I have a new life.

I can’t wait to conversate with my wife again.

Yeah.

Well, it was good conversating with you, Wilson.

We appreciate the call.

Yeah.

Appreciate it.

Thank you, guys.

Take care.

Bye-bye.

You were fantastic.

Thank you.

Well, conversate with us. The number is 877-929-9673.

I came across a great conversation online between authors Ann Patchett and Elizabeth McCracken,

And they were talking about the difference between a short story and a novel. And Grant,

You’re going to love this.

Elizabeth McCracken said,

A short story is a blow to the solar plexus.

A novel is a lingering illness from which you may never recover.

Oh, beautiful.

I love it.

Somebody who’s fond of inventing his own metaphors,

And I wish I could have invented those.

That was so good.

Say it again, please.

A short story is a blow to the solar plexus.

A novel is a lingering illness from which you may never recover.

So perfect. Sometimes when you read a great book, you do feel like they’ve inflicted something upon you.

Mm-Yeah, it becomes chronic.

It does, yeah. The author has left you with a problem to deal with because you’ve got to sort it out mentally, maybe physically.

We’re always open to hearing about what you’re reading, whether it’s a novel or a short story. 877-929-9673.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, this is Mary Judy in Stevens Point, Wisconsin.

Hi, Mary. Welcome to the show.

Well, when I was a girl in South Central Indiana, when my mother felt frazzled, she would say,

I feel as if I’ve been pulled through and not hold backwards.

I was wondering if you had any information on that.

Pulled through and not hold backwards.

And so I imagine super frazzled, just kind of not very well collected, maybe a bit disheveled.

Mostly, yes.

She had three daughters.

Well, I have three sisters, so I understand that.

And Mary, you know what a knothole is, right?

Absolutely.

Yes, we have had knotty pine in our houses from time to time.

Right, right.

It’s a naturally occurring hole in a piece of pine wood.

And if you are dragged through that, you’re going to come out the other end looking pretty disheveled and in pain, frazzled, like you said.

It’s an old expression that goes back at least until the early to mid-19th century.

And there are lots of different versions of this.

You can be dragged through 40 knot holes, for example, which would be pretty bad.

You might be pulled down a knot hole and the knot hole pulled in after, which would be even worse.

And there have been other variations of this phrase like drawn through a hedge backward or drawn through a keyhole backwards.

I remember reading a story from a 19th century newspaper that was talking about these policemen who had failed to catch a swindler.

And they ended up crawling through knotholes backwards and forwards after they found out.

They were kicking themselves, in other words.

Yeah, so she was using a very evocative phrase.

Do you use it yourself?

I don’t, but when my son was doing work study at Indiana University in Bloomington,

He did tell me that some of his co-workers used that phrase,

Dragged through a knuckle backwards.

It’s going to press the memory button for a lot of people

Because it’s such a vivid phrase, and we thank you for sharing it with us.

Oh, well, it was my pleasure.

I really enjoy your show.

Thank you very much, Mary.

Take care.

Okay, you too.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Draw yourself through the microphone hole and give us a call, 877-929-9673.

That’s toll-free in the United States and Canada.

You can also find a dozen other ways to reach us online on our website, waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, my name’s Mihaela calling from San Diego.

And I had a question for you about a phrase that I really like, that’s, it takes all kinds.

So my husband and I were talking about this phrase recently, and I was talking about somebody who was, I don’t know, a lovely weirdo or something like that.

And I said it takes all kinds.

And we realized that we had a different understanding of what that meant.

And the way I understand it to be is it takes all kinds, meaning the world requires all different kinds of people to function the way it’s supposed to.

And he was thinking it meant it takes all kinds, meaning the world accepts all kinds of different people.

And it seems like a fairly subtle difference, but kind of philosophically different in that, like, does the world need a diversity of people or is it just accepting a diversity of people?

So I wanted to hear what you folks think about it.

Oh, that’s a great question here. And you use this in your day to day life?

It does seem to come up fairly often.

Maybe it’s just the people I hang out with.

You know a lot of weirdos, a lot of lovely weirdos.

She’s calling us.

Well, let me make sure I get this straight.

So your husband thinks that it takes all kinds means that the it refers to the world and the world accepts all kinds.

Am I understanding that correctly?

I think it’s a different meaning of takes.

You know, that’s such a word that, you know, means some of the different things in different contexts.

But like takes as in accepts versus takes as in requires.

Oh, boy.

Does that make sense?

Sure.

Yeah.

Sure.

I think I have to go with, well, we have historical information on this, which is why I’m 100% sure that the requires meaning is the more appropriate one.

Oh, lovely.

But I can see the other reading as being valuable in terms of the acceptance of the world for whatever kind of puzzle piece you are, you’re going to fit into the larger puzzle of life and the world and the universe.

So I really like his interpretation.

I love the positivity in that.

I do too.

Yeah, I feel like both of them are pretty good.

And they’re close in meaning.

This idea has been around for a long time.

I’m thinking of a translation of Cervantes that goes, in the world there must be all sorts.

Yeah, many transformations of this idea and expression over the years.

Samuel Johnson wrote in the 1700s, the world has people of all sorts.

So it’s just talking about all are present, no idea, no concept of require or accept.

But yeah, I think both meetings are valid, but yours has the weight of history behind it.

Oh, so satisfying.

Was there something on the line? You know we always ask.

Yeah, well, usually my standard bet is a burrito bet, being a good Californian.

Oh, nice.

But I’m not sure that we actually formalized that on this one.

So I think we’ll all just have to get burritos to celebrate.

Yay!

Yeah, you’ll have to take us to your favorite place.

Well, Mahala, we appreciate your call.

Let us know about future language arguments.

We’re here to help.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

Great talking to you.

All right, take care of yourself.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Thanks.

Yeah, Grant, it’s a really good question.

And the more I think about it, the more I think that the implication there in it takes all kinds is that we wouldn’t have this world if we didn’t have all kinds.

You know, it just wouldn’t be the same.

Yeah.

Can you imagine a monoculture of people just like me or just like you?

Or just like me.

I don’t want to live in that world.

I’m sick of myself.

Bring me variety, diversity, complexity.

That’s what I want in my world.

And bring us your questions about language.

words@waywordradio.org or call us 877-929-9673.

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Engineer and editor Tim Felten, and quiz guide John Chaneski.

We’d love to hear from you, no matter where you are in the world.

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Who are changing the way the world talks about language.

Special thanks to Michael Breslauer, Josh Eckels, Clare Grotting, Bruce Rogow,

Rick Seidenwurm, and Betty Willis.

Thanks for listening. I’m Martha Barnette.

And I’m Grant Barrett. Until next time, goodbye.

Bye.

Thank you.

Bye.