Riddled Through with Riddles

You’re listening to A Way with Words.

I’m Martha Barnette.

And I’m Grant Barrett.

Martha, see if you can guess what I’m talking about.

I never know what you’re talking about.

No, no, no.

No, this is a riddle.

Listen to this.

Oh, a riddle.

Okay.

A riddle.

Nature requires five.

Custom gives seven.

Laziness takes nine.

And wickedness, 11.

What is it?

Sick days?

No, no, no, no.

Calories?

Five calories?

Okay, it’s a celery.

No.

No, it’s hours of sleep a night.

Listen again.

Hours of sleep.

Nature requires five.

Custom gives seven.

Laziness takes nine.

And wickedness, 11.

Oh, very good.

Okay.

That’s not bad, right?

I get it, yeah.

I found that when I was browsing, believe it or not, issues of the Journal of American Folklore from the early 1920s.

Of course I believe that.

Fascinating stuff, though.

Really fascinating stuff.

There was a collection of riddles collected from black school children in New Orleans in the 1920s.

Oh, how cool.

I’d love to see that myself.

All right.

Well, here’s another one from the list, all right?

Okay.

What is it you will break even if you name it?

That I’ll break even if I name it?

Mm—

You’re blinding me with…

Silence.

Silence.

Sounds like.

What is it you will…

You weren’t tugging on your ear.

What is it you will break even if you name it?

Yeah, if you name silence, yeah, you’re breaking it.

Well, break your silence now.

Give us a call, 1-877-929-9673.

That’s 1-877-Wayword.

Or send us an email.

The address is words@waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, Martha.

Hi, Grant.

This is Liz, and I’m calling from Indianapolis.

Hiya, Liz.

Hiya, Liz.

What’s going on?

Well, I had a question for you guys.

A little while ago, my husband and I were having a conversation, and he used the phrase “going commando,” meaning not wearing underwear under your clothes.

Mm—

Are you going to tell us what this conversation was about?

Well, we were discussing where we had an evening out for a nice evening, and without naming any names.

One of us had a new wardrobe malfunction with kind of a ripped theme happening all of a sudden.

Mm—

But it turned out okay.

The person involved was able to kind of keep it together, and it ended up pretty well.

Okay, a happy ending.

Yes.

But anyway, I was wondering.

I’ve used the phrase before, and I know what it is, but I thought, “You know, that is the strangest thing.”

And I was just wondering, how did it come to mean what it means?

I think of “Commando,” and I think of, like, a Rambo movie.

-huh.

So in other words, you were saying that, “Oh, boy, I’m sure glad that so-and-so wasn’t going commando tonight?”

Right.

Okay.

Right, yeah.

“Go commando,” just to reiterate, means to go without underpants, right?

Right, yeah.

Well, you’re kind of on the right track there with Rambo.

The idea is that — how shall I put this delicately? — that going without underpants can lead to a lot of chafing, and probably the only type of person who could withstand that chafing on a regular basis is your Navy SEAL type or your special forces kind of guy or your Rambo type, your commando type, somebody who’s tough and the kind of guy who can eat hot peppers by the handful without flinching or the kind of guy who bathes in gunpowder and lights his cigar with a blowtorch.

That kind of guy, right?

Or gal, for that matter.

Well, I was thinking in a commando kind of situation, wouldn’t that be more of a liability than anything else?

Well, he’s tough.

He can take it.

This is — trying to explain slang in a logical way sometimes falls down completely.

Talking about men’s underpants is not a thing I thought I would ever do on the air, but here we go.

Yeah, well, me either.

Or men’s underpants.

But wouldn’t it be smart to wear underpants even if you are a commando?

I mean, plan ahead.

You’re lying in wait for the enemy for three days in camouflage.

Maybe not wearing underpants is a good thing.

Maybe they have like baby pants that drop down in the back so they can do their business and then snap them back up, you know?

This is something that I’m totally not familiar with.

I’ve never been a commando.

I’ve been wrong before.

I don’t know.

But I would rather do with than without.

Yeah, I’m with you.

I’m kind of talking about the movie ideal of a commando and not the actual commando, although I imagine that they are incredibly tough individuals who can do just about anything they put their minds to.

But first of all, this expression actually is about 30 years old.

So that kind of surprises a lot of people.

Are you surprised to find that it’s that old?

I guess I’m not too surprised.

Well, most people heard it from episodes of Friends in 1996.

There’s an episode where Joey and Chandler are having some spat.

And for whatever reason, Chandler wears Joey’s underpants and Joey’s incensed about it.

So Joey is forced to go commando in a rented tux and he doesn’t want to do that and so on and so forth.

OK, well, I’ve certainly heard of it before ’96.

Yeah, yeah.

I have one printed citation for it from 1982, but I think it’s older than that.

OK.

So Liz, have we helped?

Well, I guess.

Yeah, that’s the usual response.

I know more now than I did before, which is always a plus.

Is it in this case?

I’m not sure.

I’d imagine that if there’s somebody out there that has more knowledge of this, that they’ll be sure to let us know, because our listeners are always on the ball when it comes to saying, “Well, you know, I remember using that in 1942 when I was in France.”

So you never know.

Yeah, I’m sure the tradition is much older than the expression.

Oh, well, yes.

The idea.

Yes.

Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah.

All right, Liz.

Well, thank you for your call.

All right.

Well, thanks a bunch.

You all have a good one.

OK.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

That’s a perfect slang expression, though.

Going commando?

Well, having to have a word for going without your underpants, that pretty much requires slang.

That meets all the qualifications and classifications of what slang is.

Well, whatever you’re wearing, give us a call, 1-877-929-9673.

We’ll answer your questions about clothes or whatever you have on your mind.

You can also send us an email to words@waywordradio.org.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Good afternoon.

This is Santosh.

Hi, Santosh.

How are you?

I am doing great.

How are you doing?

Super-duper.

Where are you calling from?

I’m calling from Greenfield, Indiana.

Well, we’re delighted you called.

What’s up?

My question is, I never heard anybody saying, “My dogs are barking.”

That means my feet are tired.

My dogs are barking.

My feet are tired.

Yeah.

Where did you hear it?

Well, my son and his wife, they were in Germany this summer.

And I went to visit them, and we did a lot of hiking and walking over there.

And at the end of the day, one of the evening, my son had his feet propped up on the chair.

And he smiled, and he said, “My dogs are barking.”

He said, “His wife always says that when her feet are tired, my dogs are barking.”

Then I said, “Maybe because my daughter-in-law is pediatrician.”

So I thought, “Maybe this is a medical term.”

And so I asked her that.

She said, “No, it’s not a medical term.”

Maybe one of the kids was joking, or whatever.

So I thought I should call you.

Well, you came to the right place.

You did.

You did.

And you will hear that expression.

It is probably an example of rhyming slang, which is something that you hear in different parts of the world when people jokingly speak in code by substituting words that rhyme with each other.

Wow.

The most famous rhyming slang you’ll hear about is the Cockney dialect of East London.

I see.

In that part of the world, sometimes you’ll hear people, instead of using the word “head,” they’ll use the expression “loaf of bread.”

I see.

So they might say, “Grant, use your loaf!”

Right, because they rhyme it, and then they cut off part of the rhyming expression.

Oh, wow.

Exactly.

So in this case, they rhymed it with what, Martha?

They rhymed “feet” with “dog’s meat.”

Oh, so it has nothing to do with the barking at all.

Well, it kind of does later, right?

Well, yeah, because “dog’s meat” got shortened to “feet,” and then it’s kind of a joke, you know?

Because if your dogs are complaining, if your feet are complaining, they’re going to be barking and growling and “errr,” you know?

What kind of dogs do?

Prop me up, you know?

But why would they rhyme it with “dog’s meat”?

Well, for “dog’s meat,” rhyming it with “feet,” my theory, Grant, and it’s just a theory, is that it’s the idea of stinky feet.

Well, the reason I ask is because at one time in London, it was common for dog’s meat men to travel the streets, and they would shout, as peddlers would at the time, “Dog’s meat!

Dog’s meat!”

And travel down the street, and you would come out, and you would buy usually what amounted to old, boiled horse meat from this guy to feed your pets, to feed your dog and to feed your cat.

And you’ll find this character in poetry and song.

You’ll find this guy mentioned in novel after novel.

He often shows up as a kind of almost mythical character in newspaper stories, so it would be perfectly normal for someone to rhyme “feet” with “dog’s meat” at the time because he was a common character.

“Dog’s meat” was just a phrase that everyone would know.

And then when it made it over to the United States, we don’t really have the barking show up until about 100 years ago in the United States do we find somebody saying, “My dogs are barking,” meaning my feet are barking.

But “dog’s meeting feet” goes back up much further than that.

How interesting.

So the dog’s meat guy’s feet were probably smelly and tired at the end of the day too, right?

And you know what’s even more interesting?

And this kind of is a weird part of the story.

Often these carts that would pull the boiled horse meat were pulled by dogs.

They would hitch up any old kind of dog, and you find stories talking about the fact that you could be the tiniest dog or the biggest dog, sometimes hitched up side by side, pulling these carts.

Wow, do you see where you sent us, Santosh?

I never could have imagined this.

Well, anyway, it’s a long, complicated story.

It’s pretty interesting.

See, I’m glad I called you.

Yeah, so you’re going to use that expression in good health now, right?

Yes, I am.

All right.

Yes.

Thank you very, very much.

Okay.

You’re welcome.

Thank you for calling, Santosh.

Bye-bye.

Pleasure to talk to you too.

Bye.

Bye-bye.

If you’ve got a question about something that has stumped you for a very long time, we’d like to help you sort it out.

Give us a call at 1-877-929-9673.

That’s 1-877-Wayword.

Answers.

Get your answers right here.

All right, Martha, here’s another riddle.

All right.

Four stiff standers, two lookers, two crookers, and one switch box.

What is it?

Oh, man.

Okay.

Four stiff standers.

I’m going to guess that’s the letter I, and then what was the second one?

Two lookers.

Two lookers.

Okay.

I’m going to say those are I’s.

Okay.

And what was the rest of it?

And one switch box.

Lix-a-lix-a-lix-a.

No, no.

That’s not right?

No.

No.

They don’t stand for letters.

Oh.

Well, that’s…

They’re the features on a thing.

They’re what?

They describe the features on some thing.

Oh.

I have no idea.

A cow.

Four stiff standers or legs.

Oh, a cow.

Two lookers or eyes.

Well, you were right there.

Two crookers are the horns, and one switch box is the tail.

Oh.

Oh, a switch box?

That’s so cute.

I like that, too, because the switch boxes, you think, oh, you know, something electrical in the house, maybe.

But no, they’re talking about the tail switching back and forth.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Notice how I’m not making any cow puns whatsoever, just out of deference to you?

Well, nice move.

It was the best joke I ever heard.

-oh.

Well, if you want to call and complain, the number is 1-877-9299673.

That’s 1-877-Wayword.

And if you keep making puns, I’ll run and hide.

No.

Or email us at words@waywordradio.org.

Next up, it’s a word puzzle that’s right here on A Way with Words. Favourite words.

You’re listening to A Way with Words.

I’m Martha Barnette.

And I’m Grant Barrett, and we’re joined by our quiz guide, John Chonesky.

Hi, guys.

Hi, Grant.

Hi, Martha.

Hello, John.

Hello, John.

My name is John Chonesky.

My name is John Chonesky.

And my question is, what is “Igri”?

What is that?

Igri is a word I coined.

The quickest way to define it is the opposite of schadenfreude.

When you see something happening to someone, something bad happening to someone, it’s so bad that it makes you wither inside.

You embarrass yourself watching someone else be embarrassed.

You empathize with them and with their negative feelings.

Yeah.

And you almost feel it yourself.

I talk about a lot of television as an “Igri comedy.”

For instance, curb your enthusiasm when you see Larry David do something that, oh my gosh, you would never do.

Yeah, yeah.

You’re always hiding your eyes behind your hands.

Exactly.

Right?

Yeah, that’s “Igri.”

I like that.

Lots of things inspire “Igri.”

I used to call that Freud and Schade, but I like “Igri.”

That’s good.

Very nice.

Don’t take my thunder.

“Igri.”

Well, I have a little puzzle for you guys.

I hope you enjoy it.

You’re both language experts, so I hear.

So you know a heck of a lot about word origins.

That’s great because I’m going to grill you about the origins of several words.

None of them are “Igri,” by the way, since now I know you know the origin of “Igri.”

We’ll do it like this.

I’ll describe to you a word with a Latin or Greek root.

For example, this word is formed from a prefix meaning “to” and the Latin word for “tongue.”

You can take a guess.

“To” as in T-W-O.

T-W-O, right.

Oh, yeah.

I was thinking ad-lingual, but that didn’t make any sense.

Bilingual.

Bilingual is correct.

Yes.

You can take information if you need it, including the definition of the word, but there’s the basis of it.

Right there.

Okay.

Let’s see how well you do.

Here’s the first.

The roots of this word are a Latin prefix meaning “out” and the Latin word for “burden.”

For burden?

B-U-R-D-E-N?

Burden.

That’s correct.

Out.

Wow.

X?

Yeah.

All right.

The French word maybe is really Latin, “fardo.”

What’s the Latin word for burden, Martha?

Yeah.

I’m thinking “tumor.”

Yeah, but maybe that’s the Greek word for…

No.

No.

What am I thinking?

The prefix is X, and the word for “burden” is similar to, well, similar, it’s exactly the same as an English word, it’s “onus.”

Exonerate.

Exonerate is correct.

There we go.

Take the burden off of someone.

To clear from accusation or blame.

Very good.

This word is formed from a prefix meaning “with” or “together,” and the Latin word for “run.”

R-U-N.

Mm—

That would be “conquer.”

Concur.

Exactly correct.

Mm—

Like “current” and “curriculum.”

Running.

Right.

Concurrent.

Course.

I would have taken that.

Sure.

This word is formed from a Greek prefix meaning “with” or “together,” and the Greek word for “name.”

Mm—

I know what it is.

Go for it, Martha.

Synonym.

Synonym is correct.

All right.

Soon is the Greek.

May I just say how much fun it is to be playing a game about Greek and Latin roots on the show?

I was hoping you’d like it.

Oh, my gosh.

Yes.

This is all stacked in your favor, Martha.

I know.

I’m feeling like I’m barely keeping up here.

I know.

I dreamed about this in college.

This is very exciting.

Who knew?

This is what you dreamed about in college.

That’s okay.

She was lonely.

I’d have to pinch myself if I died and gone to heaven.

She was, you know, late night in the commons by herself.

That’s true.

Right.

The prefix is “sin,” and the word for a name is “onema,” as in “eponym,” or any other words like that.

Right.

Right.

Like “symposium.”

Yeah.

Right.

It’s a term or a way, and the Latin word for “way,” W-A-Y.

Well, the Latin for “way” is “via,” V-I-A.

That’s white.

What?

That’s white?

No.

White.

Okay.

And is the prefix D-E?

D-E is right.

-ha-ha.

So, “deviate.”

“Deviate” is good.

I’ll take it.

There’s another one that I’m thinking of that means “not straightforward” or “cunning.”

“Devilish.”

No.

That’s all right.

“Devilish.”

Close.

Was it “deviant”?

Martha said “deviant” there in the background.

No?

Deviant.

No.

Well, it’s close.

I don’t know.

It’s “devious.”

Of course.

It’s not “evious.”

It’s another word.

This is a “devious” quiz.

Thank you.

It’s a lot harder going from “English” into “the.”

I think one of you, I’m not going to say who, one of you was asking for something a little tougher last time around, so I’m not going to say who.

Moving on.

This word is formed from a Latin prefix meaning “black” and a Latin word meaning “eye,” believe it or not.

Oh.

Oh.

It’s not “atrocious.”

Yes, it is atrocious.

Wow.

Very nice.

Explain that one to me.

Well, the prefix is “atr,” A-T-R, and the word for “eye” is “oc-o-c” or “ox” from “oculus,” and it means, of course, “extremely wicked, brutal, or cruel atrocious.”

That’s great.

Black countenance.

Good.

Thank you.

The roots of this word are a Latin prefix meaning “away,” a Latin word meaning “hand,” and a Latin word meaning “to take.”

Oh, say it all again, please.

Okay.

It’s all Latin.

“Away,” “hand,” and “to take.”

So am I thinking Abe Lincoln here?

Oh, yes, you are.

Okay.

Let’s give Grant a chance to…

All right. …the extra clue of Abe Lincoln.

Yeah, because that doesn’t help at all.

So, emancipation.

Emancipation.

Excellent.

Or emancipation.

Very good.

All right.

You guys, terrific.

That was my classics class.

That was fantastic.

That was great.

I want to send a shout-out to my high school Latin teacher, so there’s a quiz, guys.

You were great.

John, that was fantastic.

I got to tell you, that was truly a stumper.

Oh, I’m glad.

Well, hope that’s good.

You heard my silence, right?

Yes.

I did embark once.

I did hear the silence.

Yes, there we go.

That was great.

That was great.

That was great.

Excellent, huh?

That’s why I aim to inspire everyone, and I often succeed.

Well, thanks again, John.

Thank you, guys.

See you later.

All right.

Bye-bye.

Well, if you have a question about wordplay, language, grammar, slang, regional dialects, ancient roots, give us a call.

The number is 1-877-929-9673.

That’s 1-877-Wayword, or send an email to words@waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, my name is Maura, and I’m in Marin County.

What’s on your mind today, Maura?

Well, I have a question, because part of the time I spend in San Diego, which is Southern California, as you know, and half of the time up here in Marin, Northern California, my husband and I have tried to divide our life up.

We have a split life between Northern California and Southern California because of grandchildren.

Wow, okay.

Yeah, so I’m coming up with kind of a quiz for you, or advice.

You know how they say when you live on the East Coast and the West Coast, people say, “Well, I’m bi-coastal.

I have a bi-coastal lifestyle.

It sounds very cool.”

And so I was trying to think of how I would describe a Northern California half-time and a Southern California half-time lifestyle.

I was thinking bipolar, but it didn’t sound.

Well, that might fit.

Yeah.

I don’t know which would be the up or which would be the down.

And then I thought of, you know, “so no” Southern, Northern, Cal, “so no Cal,” or “no so…”

So no Cal?

No, wait, that sounds like a laxative.

We’re not…

Yeah.

You’re not a “so no Cal.”

Not pretty.

So you want to know what to call yourself because you spend time in two places in North and Southern California.

Right.

So you’re not bi-coastal.

No.

You’re sort of bi-latitudinal, but that…

What about bi-Cal?

Bi-Cal.

Bi-Cal.

Bi-Californian or…

Mm—

Bi-Calian.

Except it makes me feel like I have some deviation or something.

Bi-Cal.

Bi-Cal.

Bi-Cal.

Or you could say duo-Cal or di-Cal.

Di-Cal.

Yeah.

What about something like…

I don’t know.

You mentioned bi-coastal.

What about para-coastal?

Para-coastal.

I’m thinking about the Greek prefix para as in parallel.

So maybe para, you know, kind of up and down the coast or…

Well, Mara, how do you get back and forth?

Well, we’ve been driving when it’s really 5-5.

Okay.

Okay.

I was going to say there was a time when I used to fly back and forth from Kentucky to California and I went around calling myself a “jetrosexual.”

Ooh.

Yeah.

It really sounds very interesting.

But then I…

It really sounds very interesting.

But it actually means somebody who can fly off to far-flung countries for shopping sprees so that…

Yeah.

Definitely not me.

No, or me either.

I like the term “jetrosexual.”

Well, then you could say “exonsexual” since you’re spending all that money on gas.

I like that.

This reminds me of two terms that maybe will give us some stimulus for other ideas.

One is in South Carolina, they have a term called “halfback.”

And these are people who go down to Florida for the winter, but because it’s too crowded or they don’t like it, they come halfway back up the country.

These are usually people from like New Jersey and New York, and then they settle in South Carolina.

So they come halfway back up.

Oh, really?

And then supposedly in San Francisco, the Chinese there have a term “sea turtle,” which refers to these people who came from Taiwan, went to school or started careers, and then for whatever reason, because China and Taiwan are booming, they go back.

And so they call them sea turtles because sea turtles do this incredible multi-ocean migration.

They swim a great many miles on their travels.

So Mara, if you could be any migratory animal, which migratory animal would you be?

Mm.

Baba Wawa.

Some kind of flying bird, I think, sounds better.

A bird, a swallow, but the swallows don’t go back far enough to San Diego.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, they might trickle down a little.

I like halfback.

Maybe you’re a backup.

A backup.

Because you keep going back up.

Back up.

Yeah.

A backup.

Well, you have gotten me even more confused.

I’m sorry.

Well, I think what you’ve done is pressed our “We have another hole in the language that we need to fill” button.

So we may have to put on the sirens and everything and get listeners to let us know what they think.

Well, the sirens are on and the flashing lights are lit.

If you’ve got a suggestion for Mara, what she can call herself because she lives both in SoCal and NoCal, then by all means give us a call.

The number is 1-877-929-9673 or email us at words@waywordradio.org.

Hey, Mara.

Thanks for calling.

Thank you, Martha and Grant, for your ideas and your help.

Thank you.

Happy travels.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Well, we’ll have to see what people have to say about that.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Hi.

This is Maria from Indianapolis, Indiana.

Well, what’s on your mind, Maria?

Well, there’s a phenomenon I’ve been noticing recently in the news, and that is adding the suffix of “gate” to anything relating to a scandal.

And it drives me crazy.

The most recent one I saw was “lipstick gate,” which was a reference to Barack Obama calling a … Putting lipstick on a pig when he was referencing a comment that he made.

And I’m pretty sure the origins are from the Watergate scandal, which obviously took place at the Watergate hotel.

Right.

I want to know why it’s so common now, you know, 30 years later, to use it in relation to everything.

Well, let me ask you a question.

What would you say if I told you that it’s not a recent phenomenon, and it practically sensed the day that the five men were arrested for breaking into the offices of the Democratic National Convention, “gate” has been a suffix that has been attached to other words to indicate a scandal?

I would be surprised because I’ve only noticed it in the past five years or so.

Oh, really?

-huh.

Imagine the Clinton impeachment plus the O.J.

Simpson trial, the first one, and the two wars in Iraq, all combined.

That’s how significant Watergate was at the time in terms of news coverage and the way it penetrated absolutely everything.

They talked about it on the television comedy shows.

There were references to it in movies.

There were references to it in the sitcoms, in the newspapers.

For years, you could not escape this term “Watergate,” so it’s no wonder that some form of that word stuck around in that way.

Now it seems like it’s attached to the most minor of scandals, not just the big names.

That’s a very good point, and that happens to a lot of words that start out to be rather severe.

They usually become ameliorated over time and to be a little softer.

One of my favorite examples of this was, I believe it was called “Sandwich Gate,” which was used in Philadelphia because apparently the vendor who had the permit to sell food there at the stadium wasn’t going to carry Philly cheesesteaks or something, and so the local newspapers were calling it “Sandwich Gate.”

It was something ridiculous like that, but yeah, there are thousands of these gate coinages, and not only that, this gate suffix has showed up in other languages.

Oh, really?

That’s wild.

It showed up in Germany and Greece and Hungary and a few other places.

It’s also in the rest of the Anglophone world.

You can use it in the UK and Australia, and it doesn’t require explanation.

That’s how deeply it’s penetrated into English.

Well, I hope that’s helped.

Just to summarize, we’ve kind of just explained that these gate words have been coined all along for the past 30-plus years, and “gate” as a suffix to mean “scandal” is so entrenched in English that it’s probably not going to go away.

Okay.

Well, I’ll listen to it and know that it’s not just a recent phenomenon now.

No, not at all.

Okay.

Well, glad to help you, Maria.

All right.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for calling.

Bye-bye.

Okay, bye-bye.

Give us a call.

The number is 1-877-929-9673.

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Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Yes.

Hi, this is Brian Cook.

Hiya, Brian.

Where are you calling from?

Atlanta, Georgia.

Atlanta, Georgia.

Hello, Atlanta.

What’s on your mind today?

Thank you.

I have an issue between two words, the words “may” and “might.”

And I read a lot of documents at work and often see people using the word “may” to express a possibility.

And I always thought it was being misused and that they should be using the word “might.”

So I went to a dictionary, checked it out, and it turns out that they are in fact using it correctly.

And I thought “may” was supposed to be used to express permission as opposed to the word “can.”

So I’m just curious if there is any distinction between the words “may” and “might” to express possibility, and if so, what it is, and maybe how they became to mean the exact same thing.

So Martha, what about the possibility is represented by “may” and “might”?

Well, “may” tends to be used, according to the usage manuals, for the possibility that’s more likely.

If something’s more likely, you wanna use “may.”

“Might” is a little bit more doubtful.

And you particularly use “might” if you’re talking about a hypothetical situation that actually didn’t occur.

You know, we might have gone to the party, but Grant couldn’t get his act together, something like that.

Right.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me, and the “may” and “can” problem is a whole separate kettle of fish, right?

Right, and I think you pretty well explained that, Brian, that “can” has to do with ability, physical ability, and “may,” in that situation, has to do more with permission.

You know, you may now kiss the bride.

This is something that comes up a lot, Brian, which is, it’s a pretty familiar subject to us.

All the style guides treat this, they all have an answer.

They don’t 100% agree, but I think they will generally all say that in casual speech, which I suspect is not the kind of language you’re using at work in the documents that you’re talking about, the “may” and “might” are used interchangeably, in casual speech.

So in formal documentation, if there’s ever a question about this, that’s a tough one.

These minute differences in the degree of possibility between “may” and “might” are probably going to slip away from people.

I think it makes a great point.

In spoken language, we do sort of confuse those two, but in written language, you’re going to be…

Well, it’s not confusion.

It’s perfectly okay to see them as the same in informal speech.

And I’m not talking just informal spoken speech, but informal written speech.

Okay.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s normal, and the history of these words is intertwined and overlaid with all kinds of complexities that make the differences almost indistinguishable between the two.

I suspect that you’re going to run into difficulties no matter which one you use.

There’s going to be somebody who’s going to make a claim against you on “may” or “might” depending on which one you use.

So if you say “may,” somebody else is going to prefer “might” and vice versa.

Does that help, Ryan?

It does.

Yes.

I appreciate it, and I won’t just assume that they were saying that they have permission now.

Right.

Yeah.

It’s got nothing to do with permission.

The main thing in this case is nothing.

It’s a different use of “may” altogether.

It’s nothing to do with permission.

All right?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, thank you very much.

Thank you, Brian.

Best of luck.

All right.

Thanks, Brian.

Bye-bye.

Have a good day.

You too.

Bye-bye.

This is a messy one, and I think Brian’s situation is interesting.

He’s keeping in mind the important distinction between “may” and “can,” but unfortunately, it’s clouding his decision that he has to make between “may” and “might,” which is a separate decision.

Well said, yes.

“Can” doesn’t come into this at all.

Right.

Right.

So short version again is “may” is more likely, “might” is less so.

We’d love to hear about your linguistic dilemmas, your grammatical questions.

Give us a call at 1-877-929-9673.

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You’re listening to A Way with Words.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

It’s time for another round of Slang This, our weekly slang challenge.

Today’s contestant from the National Puzzlers League is Chris Morse from Somerville, Massachusetts.

Hello.

Hi.

How you doing?

I’m doing very well today.

I understand that you’re a chemistry professor and that you also teach a class in puzzle construction?

I do.

We talk all about puzzles, where they came from, how to solve them, how to make them.

It’s kind of a fun experience.

Well, speaking of language, Chris, do you have a favorite slang word for us?

I’ve been thinking about this a lot.

And I’ve decided that based on this summer, my new favorite slang word is “bromance.”

Bromance.

Who is the brother that you were having a romance with?

No, no, no, no, no.

A bromance is a romance comedy.

Like the rom-com type of movie, where it’s just sort of two guys non-romantically linked but having a very deep relationship together.

Kind of like Pineapple Express.

Pineapple Express is a romance.

I can dig it.

I can totally dig it.

Yeah?

Yeah?

Well, Chris, are you ready to play our game?

I think I am.

Okay.

Here’s how we do it.

Take it away, Grant.

There are two parts to this quiz today, and each of these parts has two possible answers.

Here we go.

He was so drunk, he took $1,000 out of an ATM and spent it in just one half hour in the club’s blank.

Did he spend $1,000 in A, the bell tower, or B, the bottle room?

Bell tower or bottle room?

What do you think, Chris?

Well, bottle room, I mean, we’re in a bar, we’ve spent a lot of money.

The bottle room could be like a wine cellar, maybe if this were like an upper class sort of thing but kind of a more ghetto way of saying it.

Bell tower?

I have no idea what that could have to be unless it’s like Bell-like, you know, B-E-L-L-E, and it’s like a room full of very high-class women who you’re wasting some money on.

No, no, no, it’s B-E-L-L-No-E-T-O-W-E-R, a bell tower, a tower with a bell in it.

And possibly bats, right?

Yes.

For those expensive rabies shots that he’s going to eat at.

So let me read the sentence again, and I’ll read the choices again, and then we’ll see what your answer is, all right?

He was so drunk he took $1,000 out of an ATM and spent it in just one half hour in the club’s blank.

Did he spend $1,000 in the bell tower or the bottle room?

That’s B-O-T-T-L-E, bottle room.

I feel like it’s a trap, but I think I’m going to go with bottle room.

I think I’m with you on that.

I think that would be where you keep your expensive good stuff.

That’s the correct answer.

It is the bottle room, but your getting there wasn’t quite right.

In some of the more shi-shi and upscale clubs, it’s customary to have a special set-aside room, kind of a VIP area, where liquor is sold for incredible markups, and what you get with that is extraordinary service, exclusivity, and a place where you can do maybe a few naughty or even illegal things without the prying eyes of other patrons.

It’s a bottle room.

Wow.

Yeah.

It’s a lifestyle I don’t lead.

I don’t lead about it.

I was going to say, I wouldn’t know about that, would you, Chris?

No, I’m about to remodel my kitchen, and I think for two drinks I could get new countertops.

Oh, yeah.

It’s expensive stuff.

You can easily spend $1,000 in a bottle room in a half an hour, easily.

No problem.

Okay, so good work.

All right, but you got that right.

You got it right.

All right, here’s the second one, “Dude, he’s almost pro on three boards, snowboarding, surfing, and skateboarding.

He can blank like nobody.

Is it A, shred, or B, scupper?”

That’s S-C-U-P-P-E-R.

Scupper or shred.

Well, shred sort of gives me the idea of tearing up, sort of like you’re tearing up the course.

So you’re going really fast down it, and since all of those sports kind of have to do with getting through a course fast and kind of agilely, where scupper …

I don’t know.

Scupper kind of sounds like a kitchen implement of some sort to me.

Like spatula.

It’s in the drawer next to the melon baller, right?

Yeah, I think scupper has to do with letting excess water out of a boat or something.

Right, so it could be the letting the water out or putting holes in something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think you’d like shred up the course.

Well, I would totally use it that way, and I’m going to start using it that way regardless of whether it’s right.

So you’re saying that a guy who’s good at snowboarding, surfing, and skateboarding can shred like nobody, right?

Yeah, that’s what I’m going to go with.

That’s great.

That’s exactly right.

It is shred.

And I think your logic was pretty good.

It originally comes from surfing.

So when you’re shredding, your board is cutting into the waves in such a way that you’re shredding the waves, as I understand it.

And Martha, you’re right about scuppering.

To scupper a boat is to sink it deliberately.

Oh, okay.

Actually, you’re letting water in, though, rather than out.

It’s like scuttling.

So it’s like scuttling, too.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Well, that’s fantastic.

You got them both right.

Well, that was, hey, 50/50 odds each time I’m…

Well, you know, it’s not…

Call them educated guesses.

All right.

He’s a college professor.

He can do math.

That’s great.

And Martha’s going to give you a million dollars.

No.

Oh, excellent.

I didn’t even need any lifelines.

Paid off $10 a year over the next several millennia.

Excellent.

Well, Chris, thanks for playing.

Thanks so much for having me.

All right.

You can find out more about the National Puzzlers League at puzzlers.org.

You can also join us here on the show with your questions or comments about slang or anything language-related.

Call 1-877-929-9673 or email us at words@waywordradio.org.

You can also jump into the fray on our discussion forums at waywordradio.org/discussion.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Hi.

This is Amy Winkle from Walbyboro, Maine.

Well, what do you have on your mind today?

Well, I guess it’s been on my mind for a while.

The first time I heard this word was in college.

One of my friends told me she was disorientated.

And I just cringed and thought, “Why isn’t she using ‘disoriented’?”

And so I’d heard — over the years, I’ve heard people use “disorientated” and “orientated” and it just makes me cringe every time.

And just a few weeks ago, actually, I was proofreading a document for work and writing the text there, you know, it said, “Orientate yourself by such and such.”

And I thought, “Oh,” you know, again, but this time I had found your program and knew that I had someone I could ask about that word.

And you have someone who’s on your side.

Yeah.

Oh, good.

At least from my point of view.

I agree with you.

I mean, for a lot of people, Amy, this is — it is kind of grating, you know?

I mean, somebody who’s disorientated sounds extra disoriented, don’t they?

Yes, exactly.

They sound like they learn from stutters.

Yeah, they sound like they’re discombobulated or something.

But I tell you, the simple and quick answer to that is that you’ll see “orientate” a lot more in Britain than you will hear.

There are a lot of people — yeah, it’s more of a Britishism.

There are a lot of people here in the States who do use the word “orientate,” but there are enough of us out there who are a little bit bothered by it that I would tend to use “orient” and “disorient.”

Yeah, the usage numbers, both in the United States and the United Kingdom, are clearly in favor of the non-8 pronunciation, that is “orient” and “disorient.”

Even in the UK, although “disorientated” and “orientated” are more common there, they’re still outnumbered by the “orient” and “disorient,” which is pretty interesting.

But the thing is, although you might have a — Martha, you might have a personal bias against the “orientate” — I do.

I do. — it is a real valid word.

It is correct.

There’s nothing wrong with using it, except if you know that you’re writing something for somebody who doesn’t like it.

Exactly.

And I think that’s the point.

Yeah, it is irritating for some of us.

I mean, not so much that we don’t understand, but, you know, Amy, for me, it reminds me of the little boy who said, “I know how to spell ‘banana,’ I just don’t know when to stop.”

Yeah.

It is very much like that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I appreciate your saying that.

So, Amy, we have a support group of at least two here.

Yeah, and I’m sure there’s going to be others — actually, yeah, I know there’s others out there.

I know there are.

I would say that one thing in your position as someone who edits text — I gather that you do that, right?

You edit text for other people?

Mm—

Mm—

You’re in a position to create a house style guide or add to a house style guide, and then you can simply fall back on it and say, “Well, our house style is to say ‘disorient’ or ‘orient,’ and so I’m going to change that.”

And you might find that that gives you a little bit of extra weight because it shows them that you’ve thought about it and said, “This is the way that we prefer that our publications be presented to the world.”

And I do have that power.

You do.

You do.

And you know what?

Creating a style guide is one of those snowballing things that can really get out of hand, but I encourage you to just add every old thing you think of to it.

There you go, Amy.

Changing the world one syllable at a time.

Exactly.

Hey, you know what?

If you’re paid to edit text, you have the right, as long as you can justify it, to have an opinion on this and to force that opinion on other people.

You do.

It’s very exciting.

I’m glad to hear it.

Yeah, yeah.

So go forth and purge the world of orientate.

I will.

All right.

Thank you so much for your call.

Oh, you’re welcome.

I was just going to thank you for at least agreeing with me if I can’t really do anything about it.

I at least agree that it’s irritating.

We can certainly do that.

Okay.

Thanks for calling, Amy.

Bye-bye.

No problem.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Well, if you’ve got a question about right or wrong or you just want to get on the air and pee with us and see if you can get us to agree with your point of view, Martha is the one to call.

I’m probably going to disagree.

That’s right.

No.

No, the number to call, do call, please.

That’s 1-877-929-9673, that’s 1-877-Wayword, or email us to words@waywordradio.org.

Hi, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, Martha and Grant, this is Tim in Winter, Wisconsin.

How are you, Tim?

How are you doing?

Pretty good, pretty good.

I have a historically significant word to ask you about.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah, it’s one of the last four words that Abraham Lincoln ever heard, and it’s from our American cousins, and the phrase went, “You sock-dologizing old man-trap.”

Oh, yeah.

You sock-dologizing old man-trap.

Yeah, and I’m pretty sure after researching it for a number of months, what it means is you ultimately cunning old seductress.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It was a comedy line, and Booth shot Lincoln as the audience laughed.

Yes, you’re right.

That was- So was Booth waiting for that line in order to- Yes, he was waiting.

He was very familiar with the play, and he was waiting for the line.

And I got interested in this because of a book I read, and the book was Benjamin Armstrong’s Early Life Among the Indians, and he’s talking to old Judge Hall, and in April of 1864, Judge Hall had a party of Lake Superior Chippewa in Washington, D.C., and made this statement, “We were in the theater when Lincoln was shot,” and I always thought it was quite interesting that a group of Native Americans would be watching our American cousins, and I’ve just always been interested in what, if I’ve got the meaning of the word correct, number one, and where the heck do they come up with words like “sock-dologizing.”

That doesn’t sound very Lake Superior to me.

No, not really.

We’re talking about the word “sock-dologer,” S-O-C-K-D-O-L-A-G-E-R.

That’s one of the main spellings.

You see it spelled different kinds of ways, but you’re right.

It was a made-up, silly word that arose out of a period of great linguistic exuberance in the early 19th century.

Apparently, the “sock” part, as far as we know, probably comes from the idea of “socking” somebody because a sock-dologer was a decisive blow, like that last punch in a fistfight that knocked somebody out.

The one that settles it for good, right?

Right.

Right.

The guy’s down for the count.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And using that kind of language, I mean, that’s part of the joke in that play, isn’t it, Tim, that you have this sort of bumptious, rough-and-tumble American who falls in with these refined English aristocrats, and it’s reflected in the language that he would say, that famous line about “I know enough to turn you inside out, old gal, you sock-dologizing old man-trap.”

That’s exactly the full sentence, yup.

Does that help?

You betcha that does help.

It was one of those words when I looked at it, I just had to smile because it really says a lot about the 1860s and 1850s.

It certainly does.

Yeah, and the term dates to at least as early as 1829, so it’s got some legs.

It’s lasted at least this long.

Right.

Right.

I love it.

I love it.

Well, thank you for reminding us about that word.

Okay.

Thanks a lot.

Thank you, Tim.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Well, if you’ve got a linguistic mystery that you think you’ve uncovered, come tell us.

The number is 1-877-929-9673, or email us.

The address is words@waywordradio.org.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Hi.

This is Carmen calling for Motion Deep.

What’s up?

Well, I have a question.

I graduated from an exercise science program.

I’m not sure actually if it was a preventive health or a preventative health program, but neither really makes sense to me because we’re actually health promotion people, which may be a more appropriate word, but if you’re in the medical community, then it’s preventive medicine, so that totally makes sense.

We’re preventing something with medicine, but in my case, it was called preventive health.

I’m wondering which word is appropriate.

Preventive or preventative, right?

Correct.

And you say that you have a preference for which?

I don’t have a preference.

Oh, okay.

I think my friends and I have debated it a number of times, and I think that the program was called preventative, but I’m not even sure because I didn’t call it either because it was confusing.

This is one of those cases where there are two nearly identical words, and one is hugely common and the other one is not, and in this case, you could probably guess which one is the most common.

Preventative?

No, no.

Preventative is actually pretty rare, by a factor of about 100 to 1.

Preventative is by far and away the word most commonly chosen for this idea of something that’s designed to fend off illness or danger.

That’s kind of what we’re talking about here, right?

Right, right.

Preventative, and a lot of people actually rail against preventative because of that extra syllable, and that’s one reason to avoid it because you don’t want people to be distracted by the fact that you used preventative and not preventive.

If you’ve got something serious to tell them about a disease, right?

Right.

Yeah, you want to prevent them from being…

That’s right.

So preventive is the better choice.

Preventative is a real word.

It means exactly the same thing.

You can use it if you want to, but preventive is the better choice.

Even though we’re…

I mean, we’re not preventing health, hopefully.

I see what you’re saying, yeah.

Well, no.

Preventative isn’t a adjective necessarily that describes the thing that is being prevented.

You would never say “preventive illness.”

Right.

Right.

So it’s always going to describe the thing that you are helping to protect.

Okay.

Okay.

You’re preventing on behalf of health.

So preventive medicine, preventive health, preventive measures.

Preventive surgery, that sort of thing.

Well, preventive measures is a little bit of an interesting case because there is that second case.

I was hoping not to bring it up, but the second case is…

The second case is…

The noun!

I tried to prevent him and I just didn’t…

The noun “measures” in this case refers to the thing that is doing the preventing.

Right.

Right.

And I think that’s really the heart of your question, isn’t it?

I mean, because the health isn’t doing the preventing exactly.

You’re trying to help your health.

Right.

But like so many words, there’s not just one way to use this.

But I can say this with 100% surety.

In no good, well-written English will you find “preventive” as an adjective describing the thing that is trying to repel or keep from causing harm.

You won’t say “preventive cancer surgery.”

I don’t think so.

To go before health with a positive meaning.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much.

Thanks for calling.

You’re welcome.

All right.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

If you’ve got a question about language or you want to sort out some subtlety, we’d like to give you a hand.

The number to call is 1-877-929-9673 or send an email to words@waywordradio.org.

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That’s our show for this week.

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Tim also engineered our theme music.

Kirk Konin produced it.

We’ve had production help this week from Michael Bagdasian.

From Studio West in San Diego, I’m Martha Barnette.

And from the Argo Network in New York City, I’m Grant Barrett, inviting you to join us next week right here on A Way with Words.

Ciao luego!

A bientôt!

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