Patricia from Fort Worth, Texas, has been mystified by an expression her husband’s grandmother would use when trying to avoid answering a question about where something had gone. She’d say it’s gone where the woodbine twineth and the whangdoodle mourneth. The story behind this expression is complicated, but it’s clear that phrase where the woodbine twineth was a catchphrase in the 1870s, and whangdoodle is a catch-all term for an unknown or mythical animal. This is part of a complete episode.
Transcript of “Where the Woodbine Twineth and the Whangdoodle Mourneth”
Hello, you have A Way with Words. Hi, Martha. How are you? Hi, I’m doing well. Who’s this and where are you?
This is Patricia Keck calling from Fort Worth, Texas. Well, welcome, Patricia. What can we do for you?
Well, I had a question about an expression that my husband’s grandmother used that sort of mystified me.
I grew up in South Texas on the border between Texas and Mexico, and Spanish was my first language.
So when I married into his family, I ran across lots of expressions that I had never heard before.
And one was from his grandmother.
And she often would say when she didn’t want to maybe perhaps answer completely or actually didn’t know where something was,
She would say, it’s gone where the woodbine twineth and the wang doodle mourneth.
And I really didn’t know what to make of that, and in some ways still don’t.
Where the Woodbine Twineth and the Wangdoodle Morneth?
I know. Imagine that one.
Where the Woodbine Twineth and the Wangdoodle Morneth.
We’re going to have to break this down, but I want to tell you a little story first about a man named James Fiske, Jr.
In 1870 or so, he and another fellow were accused of trying to embezzle millions of dollars worth of money from the U.S. Government,
Basically what they were trying to do was artificially inflate the price of gold.
And then they were trying to lure President Grant’s administration into the scheme.
And as part of that, they gave $25,000 to Mrs. Grant to spend as she wished, basically.
Now, it’s really complicated, and I’m oversimplifying, but that’s the gist of it.
And so they were called to testify.
And this fellow James Fisk apparently was quite a character.
He is described in the newspapers as delivering a profane torrent of words,
And that when he was testifying, it was a broad farce or roaring comedy from beginning to end.
So this guy, he was a real piece of work.
And so they asked him point blank.
They’re like, where did the money go?
What happened to the money?
And he replied with what you’ve said, only he said a shorter version of it.
He said, where the woodbine twineth.
And this sentence was repeated in newspapers from coast to coast repeatedly over a period of weeks and months.
And it kind of became like one of these catchphrases.
Of 1870. This was just a thing that you would say to mean that something went away and I don’t know
Where it went. And the reason that it means that is even more interesting to me because woodbine
Is a name that’s been used for a couple different kinds of creeping vines. Even Virginia creeper,
For example, which is very common in the United States, will wind around a drain spout or a
Downspout on a house. And so where the woodbine twineth means the place where the vines wrap
Themselves around, and that is the spout. And it’s an indirect reference to another slang term that
We don’t really use in English much anymore. To say that something is up the spout doesn’t mean
That they got pregnant, which is another version that’s unrelated to this. It means that it went
Away. And so something goes up the spout, it means it’s gone. And the reason up the spout means up
The way has to do with pawnbrokers.
I kid you not.
Are you following all those?
Pawn shops.
Because when you went to a pawn shop in the 1800s,
They didn’t store the merchandise that was being pawned
On the level where you would hand it over
And get some money in return.
What they would do is they would send it upstairs.
They would send it into storage.
And often there was a hole in the floor of the ceiling called a spout.
And it had like a pulley system or a dumb waiter, even just a bucket on a rope.
But there was this chute or funnel or hole called the spout.
And so when you went to the pawnbroker to try to get money for your most valuable possessions, your watch, your fine jacket, your good hat, whatever it was, your belongings are said to have gone up the spout.
And you got very little money for them.
And they’re considered gone forever because if you’ve ever gone to a pawnbroker, even now, typically, most of the stuff that is given to a pawnbroker for a little bit of money is never redeemed by the original pawner.
It’s later sold on by the pawn shop to somebody else.
It’s a black hole for personal possessions.
You tend not to get them back.
And so this whole complicated story, where the woodbine twineth, has to do with pawnbrokers, the expression up the spout mean gone, and this guy talking about vines wrapping themselves around a downspout.
Well, that timing sounds, you said about 1870, sounds just right, because she was born in 1890, and her parents both used that expression.
So, you know, from Ohio and Pleasant Lake, Indiana.
So that was a usage that was not uncommon in her family.
Absolutely. I totally believe it.
Well, but what about the whang doodle?
It’s a kind of a catch-all word for an unknown animal, either a mythical animal or one that you can identify.
When you hear an animal in the bushes and you can’t quite make out the call and you don’t really know what it is, that’s a wingdoodle.
Well, it’ll be right there with the jub-jub bird and the bandersnatch and the jabberwock.
The wingdoodle is in good company.
Yeah, what’s interesting is the where the woodbine twineth and the latter part of what you quoted, the where the wingdoodle mourneth for her firstborn is the longer expression.
They’re two separate catchphrases that later joined up to become one.
The weird, the wing doodle phrase actually is older by about 20 years.
Yeah, it reminds me of those phrases that parents use when kids are being too inquisitive.
It’s sort of like there’s one that goes, I’m making a, you know, a kid says, what are you doing, mom?
And she says, I’m making a whim wham for a goose’s bridle or a whimmy diddle or something like that.
Sort of like a wang doodle.
Patricia, thank you so much for introducing all of our listeners to this expression.
It’s a fantastic one.
Thank you, Grant.
Thank you, Martha.
All right, take care.
Yeah, thanks for sharing these memories.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Well, is there a word or phrase that’s been kicking around your family for a while?
Call us about at 877-929-9673.
