Tips for Lay vs. Lie

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, this is Stacey Lee Hutchins calling from Buffalo, Kentucky.

I love your show.

I’ve heard you guys discuss multiple times about how languages change and certain words get replaced, conjugations fall out of use.

And my question is, is there a point where those of us who love language and we love grammar should just give up on certain words?

Thinking specifically about lay and lie, maybe it’s just here in Kentucky, but in everyday youth, I almost never hear anybody use lie correctly.

Even my husband, he’s a very educated man.

He’s pursuing his Ph.D., and he refuses to use lie correctly because he thinks it sounds pretentious.

Oh, interesting.

Interesting.

So specifically, would you say that lie is going the way of the dodo bird?

And more generally, just when do we give up on a word?

I tell you what, it pains me to say it.

It really pains me to say it.

But I think lie is on its way out, the correct use.

And you have the evidence in what you just told us, Stacey.

Your husband is an educated man who feels it sounds pretentious.

And there’s no going back.

The general rule in linguistics is once the public starts to cry out about language change in a particular case, it’s too late.

It’s already done.

And they’re on the downward slope of catching on to that trend.

Well, speaking of downward, I mean, I’ve taken just way too many yoga classes where the instructor said, now lay down on the mat.

Lay my weight down on the mat.

It harshes my mellow when they do that still.

I mean, you know, that’s the flip side of it, that those of us who grew up with an English teacher for a mom, we know the correct use of lie and lay.

And so do you, Stacey.

And it grates a little bit.

I mean, you don’t want to be pretentious about it, but it does hurt my teeth a little bit.

Because I went to all the trouble to learn it, you know, when I told my mom.

Nobody bothered to teach me.

I had to learn as an adult and I still get it wrong most of the time.

Seriously, it’s hard to undo that one.

It’s such a tangled mess.

Yeah, it is.

I want to answer your initial question.

How do we know when it’s time to give up?

It’s the question you can only answer for yourself unless you’re paid to judge the language of other people, if you’re a copy editor or professor or a grade school teacher or editor of some kind.

Otherwise, for most of us, if we’re not in those kinds of jobs, it’s your own personal decision and one you’re just going to have to make for yourself.

And that’s already really what’s happened, where lots of people have already silently made this decision for themselves or maybe verbally, like your husband.

And collectively, they are demonstrating that the language change has moved along.

I mean, on a scale of 1 to 10, we’re probably at a 9 in terms of how much this is done being changed.

But it’s hard to know what to do.

Yeah, there’s another thing I wanted to address, though, in what you said, Stacey.

And I think this is really important.

You said something about for those of us who love language, I would argue that most people love language.

And not respecting the old rules about lie versus lay doesn’t mean that you don’t love language.

It might mean that you appreciate this new efficiency.

Because really what’s happening with lay versus lie is a consolidation of forms where we’re adding, we’re removing ambiguity and we’re adding simplicity.

And this is actually a nice little efficiency that’s happening in English.

And it’s worth respecting that when people move forward with this and just kind of consolidate all these different forms, it’s great.

It’s actually really good for English.

And it removes personal uncertainty and doubt about our own speech and stops making us feel dumb.

What do you think about that?

I think my husband is going to love this.

But, you know, I am notorious, Stacey.

Everyone who listens to the show, I am notorious for being the guy who says, yeah, that’s fine.

Do whatever you want.

And Martha is a little more of a moderating force on that.

Oh, that’s a nice way to put it.

But I think between the two of us, I think there’s a large distance between getting from where Martha is or was with lay vs. lie and getting to where I am.

And it’s a long road.

And if you’re like Martha and you had it pounded into you by your parents, it is hard to let go of that.

I told my mom I was laying on the couch and she said, oh, goody, how many eggs?

I don’t have to go to the store.

And that taught me immediately.

How many eggs was it?

It was no eggs, but it just took that one time to teach me.

But, I mean, I learned that stuff by osmosis.

And so we are in this really weird position right now.

We’ve talked about this on the show before, but I want to recommend Garner’s Modern American Usage to you.

Get the new addition to it.

Brian Garner is a very conservative language commentator.

I mean conservative in a nonpolitical conservative way.

It means he respects the older forms and the older traditions.

And the reason he does this is because he’s addressing an audience that can’t afford to take any chances on speaking well to their professional audiences.

And it’s totally respectable.

But what he’s added in the newer editions of Garner’s Modern American Usage is this language change spectrum where he will show you his personal opinion on how far along these innovations have come.

So he has things like a one to five scale, a five being like, it’s done, give it up, don’t fight the battle, and a one, which is it’s not too late to keep this traditional usage with this traditional form.

It’s only just begun.

It’s really worth looking into.

That sounds really interesting.

It is.

I mean, if you’re a big nerd, I hope you are.

You sound like a nerd.

It’s fantastic.

I mean that in the best possible way.

So, Stacey, why don’t you call us back sometime and we’ll talk about who versus whom.

Anyway, Stacey, thank you for calling, all right?

Thank you both. Thank you.

Thanks for listening, too.

Say hi to your husband for us.

I will. Thank you, Martha. Y’all have a good day.

Okay, you too. Bye-bye.

Bye.

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