Forty-Eleven Zillion (episode #1579)

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it. I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette. On our Facebook group, Kitty O’Neill asks a question that I think we all can identify with. She writes, my husband and I usually have dinner together eating the same meal, but if we’re not too hungry or haven’t planned anything, we each just fix our own food. He calls it catch as catch can. I call it fend for yourself. Do you call this anything? We’re looking for a new phrase for us to use together. And Grant, boy, did we get a boatload of answers.

Oh, yeah. Tons of stuff.

And one of my favorites is, we’re having get your owny.

Sounds like rice-a-roni or macaroni.

I know. I love this imaginary pasta. Get your own. I mean, you can just imagine the tired adult comes home from work and the kids are saying, what are we going to have? What are we going to have? Get your owny. Or make your owny. That’s another one. Make your owny.

That’s really good.

And there were lots of these that were really great, like, we’re having yo-yo.

You’re on your own.

Y-O-Y-O.

-huh.

Another name is Supper Jump Up.

If you want supper, jump up and get it yourself.

And then one of my favorites was from Persephone, who wrote that they have corn, which is clean out refrigerator night.

We’re having corn.

And she added that the kids’ favorite is anything night.

Anything night, I don’t care if they eat soup and licorice, milk and cereal, mashed potatoes and canned salmon, pizza rolls, whatever they want.

Apparently, anything night is real popular with kids.

Wow, the cake mix out of the box.

Right.

And it’s an opportunity for adults to clean out the fridge, too.

You know, just take everything out of the fridge and put it on the counter.

Yeah, wipe those shelves, clean out those drawers.

Yeah.

So I have a few more of those that I’m going to share later in the show.

Well, when it’s fend-for-yourself night, what do you call it in your house when everyone has to make their own food and there’s no planned meal?

Let us know, 877-929-9673, or tell us on Twitter @wayword.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Yeah, hi, this is Hattie. I’m calling from Houston, Texas.

Hey, Hattie, welcome to the show. What can we do for you?

When we were growing up in Houston, my mom had this saying, if something was short-lived, like a wedding or something, she would say, well, that lasted about as long as Pat stayed in the Army.

And we were like, Mama, who was Pat?

And how long did Pat stay in the Army?

Of course, we never got an answer.

So I was wondering if you guys could help me out.

So it was a short wedding or a short marriage?

Anything that was short.

You know, it could be a short wedding or, you know, a short trip somewhere or a short relationship or anything that was for a short period.

She would say it lasted about as long as Pat stayed in the Army.

And that’s the name Pat, like P-A-T?

Right. Like a person, Pat.

You know, I know this one, and I know it only because we’ve had other listeners ask about this over the years.

Charlie in Alabama, Mary Beth in Eastern Kentucky, Jonathan Smith in Virginia, Matt in Florida, and Gregory in Dallas have all either called or emailed about this.

And so over the years, I’ve had reason to look this up and try to nail this down.

And I discovered a few things about it.

One, sometimes people say as long as John stayed in the Army.

And I’ve been able to trace it as far back as 1898.

In Kentucky newspapers, all of the earliest uses I can find are from Kentucky.

But I’ve never been able to figure out who Pat was.

I have a theory, which is worth nothing, which is worth zero dollars, that I’ll share with you.

That maybe it was somebody who went to fight in the Spanish-American War, which was happening in the 1890s, but then thought better of it and came home.

That’s one idea.

But I don’t know who Pat was, but it’s been traveling around.

It’s mainly a southern term, Southern American English.

Yeah.

Well, I’m glad somebody else has heard of it because none of my friends had ever heard that saying.

Yeah, it’s not really that common, but it does make the rounds.

You’ll find it here and there.

It’s got just enough life to keep being passed on from person to person.

There’s a little joke that goes with it sometimes.

And people say, well, what do you mean, how long did Pat stay in the Army?

And then they’ll say back, well, the clock was striking one when he enlisted, and it was still striking when he got out.

I’ll have to remember that.

And another way of phrasing it is it’s not more than a skinny minute.

Okay.

That’s all I have been able to uncover over the years about how long Pat stayed in the Army.

It’s a really short time, a skinny minute.

Yeah, it’s a really handy expression, isn’t it, Hattie?

Oh, it is. It really is, yeah.

And it always sparks conversation.

Well, who is Pat?

Yeah, who was Pat?

I just imagine some fellow who was filled with patriotic fervor and went to join the war.

And about halfway there, he says, I guess I better get back to the farm and look after those hogs.

And he turned around and went home.

When I told my husband I was calling in, he said, maybe Pat will show up.

Yeah, maybe we’ll hear from Pat.

Or Pat’s descendants.

Patty, thank you so much for calling about this.

We really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Take care. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Hey there, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, my name is Lisa, and I’m calling from San Antonio, Texas.

I wanted to talk to you a little bit about zarf.

Zarf?

Zarf? What planet is that?

Zarf.

And I hope that I’m saying this word correctly, because I only know it from crossword puzzles.

But in crossword puzzles, I’ve come across this word zarf.

And I think it means the kind of paper collar that you’d put around a coffee cup so that you don’t burn your hands on a hot drink.

And the reason I wanted to call is I’ve come across that word in other contexts.

But whenever I’m in a coffee shop, I’m just afraid to say it to the barista.

And I just say that kind of paper collar thing.

I don’t need it.

I don’t want one.

But I want to know a little bit about more, just this word, and then maybe this kind of bigger question about why is it that we’re afraid sometimes to use, like, a more technical term, and we just say, like, the paper collar thing.

Yeah.

That’s loaded with all good things to talk about.

Lots of juicy morsels in there.

Yeah, it sure is.

I mean, it’s been a long time since I’ve been in a coffee shop, so I’m getting kind of nostalgic just hearing you talk about it, Lisa.

But I’m trying to think.

Yeah, I do remember stumbling over what to say.

I think I usually end up saying sleeve.

But I do know that word zarf.

Yeah, I know it too.

And zarf is how everyone in English says it.

It comes from Arabic.

And it refers to a larger cup or holder, often filigree or finely decorated, that holds a glass or ceramic cup of hot tea, which has its own name.

That glass or cup of hot tea is called a figan or finjan.

And so, yeah, we just borrowed it straight from Arabic to refer to these rather ordinary sleeves or holders for hot drinks.

But you raise a great question.

If you know a particular technical word for something and you suspect that the person you’re talking to doesn’t know that word, you know, you kind of trip up.

Right, Lisa?

Yeah, that’s exactly it.

So I could imagine, right, if I was a surgical nurse in an that, you know, you’d really want to get all of the technical lingo right.

And I think, you know, like a barista might know this, right?

There’s probably a lot of, we use a lot of other technical words in coffee shops, right?

Macchiato and half-calf.

And it’s actually a really technical space.

But for some reason, like this word, we just don’t really have a good name for it.

Yeah.

I wonder if it’s because we know in our hearts that it’s not fully ankylcized.

And so it’s a bit of a catch-22.

We worry that we won’t be understood.

Therefore, we don’t use it.

And because not a lot of people use it, it’s not widely understood.

Exactly. Exactly.

I think if you Google zarf, you will find that it’s one of those words that is often shared as a, wow, did you know? I think the word is getting out there and that you can be on the forefront of people who share this word and be the one who teaches people who don’t know.

And I think most coffee shop workers who’ve worked there will know. They will have learned the language.

You think?

Yeah, I do.

Can you hand me the zarf?

Yeah, I think they’ll know zarf.

You know what’s discordant for me, though, Lisa, is that zarfs, if you Google zarfs, they are elegant, beautiful things usually.

The original ones in the Middle Eastern culture.

And I’m not sure that the cheap cardboard things from the coffee shop are even worthy of the name zarf.

Because they’re cleverly constructed, but they’re not particularly elegant.

Yeah, you know, I’ve eaten in like Moroccan restaurants and I know exactly the kind of beautiful metal, like ornate, like it brings a level of ceremony to a beverage.

And surely that little paper thing at a coffee shop doesn’t.

But it is sort of a troubling thing of like, like what kind of look would I get?

Or, you know, am I just going to have to end up feeling kind of confused and pretentious in a coffee shop?

I liked your comparison to the medical field.

Martha, if you and I are talking about linguistics, what do we do?

We use the linguistics terms.

But if we’re talking to a listener, we might not know if they know the linguistics terms.

So we might explain it, something in plainer words and not use the formal language for it.

And I think that’s what’s happening here.

If you are an insider, you’ll use the insider language.

If you’re not, you won’t.

It’s hard to know who the insiders are.

Yeah.

And I guess this is maybe my bigger question.

But sometimes a technical word helps you be understood more quickly and clearly in some context.

And in other contexts, it actually just causes more confusion.

And it’s better to say paper sleeve thingy.

But once you do a little field work, try zarf in your next coffee shop encounter, say maybe the next 10, and see how many people don’t blink an eye at it.

See what happens.

I absolutely will.

Take care and be well, all right?

Thank you so much.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Earlier we were talking about the terms that families use for those nights in your home where nobody’s actually cooking dinner.

Everybody’s just grabbing whatever they want from the fridge.

And as it happens, Roz Chast, who’s a cartoonist for The New Yorker, put out a similar question on her Instagram a few months ago.

And she got back more than 1,700 responses of what families call this kind of dinner.

And some of them are really great.

I’ll just share a few.

California plate, spa plate, eek, mustard with crackers, having weirds, get your roni, which we mentioned before, goblin meal, gishing, piwa diddly, picky poke, screamers, trash panda, rags and bottles, blackout, bingo, miff muff or moof, anarchy kitchen, going feral, going Darwin, gougats, oogle moogle, dirt night, and mousy mousy.

Wow.

I wonder how many of those were real.

I was wondering that too, but apparently she got at least a couple of mentions of if it’s.

If it’s in the fridge, it’s fair game.

I’m having butter.

Look, a stick of butter.

What do you call that kind of free-for-all when you have to make your own dinner?

877-929-9673 or send it to us in email.

That address is words@waywordradio.org.

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

And joining us now is our quiz guy, John Chaneski.

Hey, John.

Hi, John.

Hey, Martha.

Hi, Grant.

How are you guys doing?

Super duper.

Terrific.

You know, it’s time to get on the ball and answer some questions about things on other things.

I think we did things of things, but this is about nouns that are atop other nouns.

This is weird, but we’ll do it.

For example, we need the opinion of an average Joe found exactly where you would find an average Joe standing in the road.

That’s man on the street.

Right.

Man on the street is a noun, and he’s on a noun, on the.

So let’s try some more of these.

We want to observe something surreptitiously, so we’ve got to be like an inconspicuous insect off to the side in the room.

Sure, we’re a fly on the wall.

We’re a fly on the wall, indeed.

Now, having a baked dessert is one thing, but, oh, having a baked dessert covered in creamy, sugary deliciousness, oh, you know what that is.

Baked dessert covered in creamy, delicious…

So it’s just…

Yeah.

Icing on the cake.

Oh, there we go.

Yes, icing on the cake.

Nicely done.

Now, look, before we go any further, I want to get things straight between us.

I’ve never played Pokemon before.

That’s why I’m just laying my hand down in front of me.

Your cards on the table.

Yes, cards on the table.

Very good.

Now, in America, this ornithological phrase means you’ve got a man on second and third in baseball.

In Australia, it means women have entered the room, so watch your language.

Really?

Yeah.

Birds on the…

Okay, actually, that’s a more specific bird.

Quack, quack.

Ducks on the pond.

Ducks on the pond, yes.

That’s it.

Now, if you do have ducks on the pond in baseball, maybe you shouldn’t get distracted by ducks on the pond.

Women, maybe you should just focus your vision and attain your goal.

Keep your eyes on the prize.

Eyes on the prize.

Both of those are fine.

I want to be where the deer and the antelope play, where seldom is heard a discouraging word, you know, where your domicile overlooks an open region where livestock feeds.

On the stovetop.

I mean the range.

Home on the range.

Home on the range, right.

I’m going to take this petrol as far from the conflagration as I can.

I’m just afraid it’s going to make the situation worse, if you know what I mean.

Throw something on the fire.

Gas on the fire.

Gas on the fire.

Yeah, you don’t want to throw gas in the fire.

Anything on the fire.

I had to stop and think.

Yeah.

We need people there, actually there, not viewing it from afar.

We need footwear hitting the soil.

Boots on the ground.

Boots on the ground.

Boots on the ground, yes.

See, now I’m in a better mood.

Let’s all climb up to the tavern’s roof deck, and whatever you’d like to order, it’s free.

It’s on John Chaneski.

Drinks on the house.

Drinks on the house.

Drinks on the house.

Tavern on the green.

Right.

No, seriously, seriously.

Drinks are on the house.

I’m not lying.

I’ll take an oath to that effect.

You’ll swear on the Bible?

Let’s put a noun on that noun.

Hand on the Bible?

Hand on the Bible, yes.

Hand on the Bible.

The drinks are on the house.

So let’s go have a drink right now.

That’s it.

You’ve finished the quiz.

Nice job.

John, that quiz was right on the money.

Bingo, buddy. Thank you so much.

Free and worth every penny.

You’re welcome. I’ll see you next week.

Bye-bye.

Bye, John.

877-929-9673. Email words@waywordradio.org or talk to us on Twitter @wayword.

Hello. You have A Way with Words.

Hi there. I’m Peter, and I live in a little city along the Delaware River in Pennsylvania called Easton.

Easton, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the show, Peter.

Hi, Peter.

Oh, thank you so much. Hi. Hi, guys. It’s great to be talking with you. So growing up, I was really a voracious reader, and I was always very fascinated by words. And I even made up some words, some of which have been sort of lost to time. But in the blur of my childhood, I think I sort of associated the word rapscallion with some of the words that I had made up. And I thought that I had actually created the word.

You know, you never really hear people use the word rapscallion.

I think it’s sort of old fashioned.

And it actually came up one day because I was driving through upstate New York with my girlfriend and I called her a rapscallion.

And we got to talking about the word.

I did.

And we got to talking about the word.

And she informed me she majored in English and is a librarian.

So she knew and she informed me that I, in fact, did not create the word, that it was a real word.

So I was very fascinated by this.

And that’s why I’m calling.

I want to learn more about it.

Well, let me ask you, do you have a time machine?

Because you might have created the word.

No, I guess not.

Unfortunately not.

No.

OK.

Well, Peter, first of all, I just want to congratulate you on your taste in girlfriends,

Because if she’s an English major and a library…

Oh, hot flashes over here.

She’s our people.

So how could you possibly call her Rapscallion?

She was being a genius.

I don’t know.

Yeah.

It can be affectionate, though, Martha, can’t it?

Oh, sure.

Rapscallion can be kind of, you know,

You album, oh, you Rapscallion, you.

Yes, yes.

And that’s the sense you’ve met.

It’s a little flirtatious.

Yeah.

Right, exactly.

Nice, okay.

Well played, Peter. Well played. Yeah, rapscallion means like a scamp or a scoundrel, something like that. But yeah, this is a word that has, Grant was asking if you had a time machine because this word has been around since, gosh, the 17th century. I’m betting that you picked it up somewhere in the blur of your childhood being so well read.

You know what? I am willing to bet that, too. I read a lot of sort of older children’s books at the time. So I wonder if that’s maybe where it came from.

Yeah, and its roots actually are in the word rascal, which has been part of English since the 15th century.

As I said, in the 17th century, it was modified to rascalion, and then by the end of the century, it was rapscallion.

And as Grant said, it can be affectionate.

I mean, you know, you can use it a lot of different ways.

You might talk about a little dog who’s chewing your shoes and maybe he’s a rapscallion.

Right, right.

But let’s talk for a second about that weird phenomenon where you think that you invented a word only to find out you didn’t.

Let me ask you, Peter, do you remember when you learned most words that you know?

Oh, gosh. I would say probably between, I don’t know, 3 and 10? 3 and 12?

When you really first start reading? I don’t know.

What I’m saying is, I was thinking that most words that you know, you don’t know where and when you learned them.

And that would be true for Rapscallion as well.

And when we have an unusual word in our vocabulary, we sometimes remember where we learned it, but often we don’t.

And in the word history business that Martha and I are in, we often get well-meaning emails and phone calls from people who are pretty sure that they invented a word.

And we have to gently tell them, well, unless you had a time machine, you didn’t.

Because we have print evidence of this word from when your great-grandparents were alive.

That’s amazing.

Well, and it echoes sort of the conversation that my girlfriend and I had, right, driving down the road and me insisting, no, really, I created this word and she Googled it.

I think we know who the rapscallion in this relationship is, actually.

Right.

Well, thank you both so much for your time today.

I appreciate it.

It was really a blast.

I’ve been a fan of the show for a long time.

So thank you.

Thank you, Peter.

Take care now.

Great to talk with you and hi to your girlfriend.

Bye-bye.

Okay.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Well, let us help you forward the rivers of language.

Call us 877-929-9673.

That’s toll-free in the U.S. and Canada.

Or you can talk to us in email, words@waywordradio.org,

Or on Twitter @wayword.

John Hyatt served in the Navy for many years, and he now lives in San Diego,

And he wrote to us with some great pranks that Navy sailors would play on the newbies on the ship.

And one of the things was to send a new recruit to the bosun’s locker for 10 yards of gig line.

Do you know what a gig line is, Grant?

I don’t know, for fishing? I don’t really know much about it.

The gig line is the line from the button-down shirt through the belt buckle and the pants zipper flap that go down a person’s front.

You have to have that all straightened up.

Oh, I see.

Going for gig line, it’s not something wound around a spool.

I see. It’s an impossibility.

That’s the core of the newbie pranks in the world, sending the newbie for something that can’t be found.

Yeah.

And another one is to send them to the boiler room for tools and to ask the person there for a BT punch.

And what you get is a punch on the arm from the boiler tech, the person there.

Who’s obviously in on it.

Probably got a punch on his first day, too.

That’s good.

And there’s always the classics like the left-handed wrench.

Yeah, or the striped paint.

Yeah, and the bucket of smoke.

Well, we love hearing from people who have been in the military and have some great jargon from those days.

Give us a call, 877-929-9673, or send it to us in email.

The address is words@waywordradio.org.

Hi, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, Martha.

My name is Sean from Los Angeles.

And my question for you guys is, I’ve noticed recently that it seems like government agencies like the FBI, the CIA, the IRS, EPA, when I hear them referred to in press briefings or even on places online, they seem to drop the definite article.

I grew up in the 80s, always knowing about the CIA, the FBI.

But a lot of times people seem to refer to it as just FBI or CIA.

And I was curious if that was just sort of a natural linguistic shift or if there was an official style guide out there encouraging people to not use the definite article or just wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

What’s an example of a longer sentence that you might hear that in?

For example, the FBI on Twitter, they have right here, Girl Scouts of the USA and FBI signed memoriam of understanding in support of STEM programs for girls.

Perfect. Great example. Because it’s the FBI talking about themselves, right?

And that’s a really good example because typically within the larger governmental organizations, they do drop the the because they don’t need to call themselves out with the definite article.

CIA does the same thing. IRS does the same thing. DOJ, the Department of Justice, does the same thing.

So typically you will find in-house they do not refer to themselves with the definite article.

And as a matter of fact, the Department of Justice has something called the National Institute of Justice, and they have a style guide that says don’t use an article in front of an acronym used as a noun unless the usage is generally accepted.

So they do allow the FBI, the CA, the IRS, but they don’t put it in front of EPA or NIJ or DOJ and a bunch of others, the CDC.

And so they’ve established that as a principle. The style guide for the general, the government printing office doesn’t address this point, but the Chicago Manual of Style does kind of suggest, it says acronyms are rarely preceded by the, except when used adjectivally.

Initialisms, that is where you say the letters like E-U, are often preceded by an article, but they don’t, in the Chicago Manual style, make a rule out of it.

So you might say DNA, for example. You wouldn’t say the DNA, right? Or you might say NPR and PBS. You don’t say the NPR and the PBS.

So there are a lot of exceptions to the rules. But generally, you’ll find this in-house, Sean, is where they tend to drop the definite article.

So how about that, Sean?

That’s really interesting insight into sort of the inner workings of just the language of these organizations.

I really appreciate you guys taking my call.

Our pleasure. Thanks for calling. Call us again sometime.

Thanks, Sean.

Absolutely. Take care.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

We’d love to hear your language questions, so call us 877-929-9673

Or send it to us in email.

That address is words@waywordradio.org.

If you need to describe somebody who has a sour expression

Or maybe they’re grumpy, you can always say

They look like they were eating vinegar off a fork.

What?

Isn’t that a great expression or licking vinegar off a fork?

I mean, just how would your face look if you were licking vinegar?

Yeah, so not only unhappy about what they’re eating, but how they’re eating it.

Right.

She looked like she’d been eating vinegar off a fork.

877-929-9673.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, this is Jill.

How are you?

Excellent.

Jill, where are you calling from?

Dallas, Texas.

Well, welcome.

What can we do for you?

Thank you.

My daughter is with me.

Actually, and she has a word that her grandfather used, and thus I used, and I don’t know where it came from, nor does she.

Well, yes, please. Let’s talk to her.

Yes, I am going to put her on the phone right now.

Her name is Margaret.

Okay.

Hi, Grand Martha.

Hi, Margaret. How are you doing?

Good, good. I’m very excited to be on here and asking my question.

So it’s a word that my grandfather used and then my mom used.

So I’ve always wondered the meaning behind it.

It is corn swoggled.

They usually use it when they’re confused.

So that’s what we just associated it with.

But I’m curious if it actually means that and where it came from.

Can you spell that, Margaret?

Yes. C-O-R-N-S-W-A-G-G-L-E-D.

Interesting.

Are you saying corn swaggle or corn swoggles?

We say it like corn swoggled.

Corn swoggled.

Okay.

This is a wonderful word, Margaret.

I’m so glad you asked about it because we rarely see this version of it.

It’s usually horn swoggle.

Have you heard that word?

I have not.

Okay.

So that’s an H instead of a C at the beginning.

Yeah.

And the word horn swoggle.

Wow, I’ve never heard that.

Yeah.

Well, the word horn swoggle means to cause difficulty for somebody.

It originally meant to cheat or deceive somebody or just get them all messed up.

You know, I’m hornswoggled because I can’t do this or that thing.

And these words come from a period in the mid-19th century when there was this great fad for kind of mixing and matching syllables to form these words that sounded like they came from Latin, but they didn’t really.

So you got all these words during this period, like confusticate, which means to confuse, or gosh, bustified, which means you’re really, really pleased, or absquatulate, which means to leave in a hurry.

And hornswoggle was one of those words, and the far less common version of that is cornswoggled.

And I’m so excited to hear an actual usage of this because we don’t see it that often.

Wow.

Wow.

What do you make of that, Margaret?

TMI, Martha.

That’s just crazy.

I never knew that this was the less used version of it.

Yeah.

It’s got a long history.

Yeah, but it’s a really fun word to say, right?

Yeah, definitely.

Yes.

Well, anytime you’re corn swoggled about language, give us a call.

Okay, Margaret?

Okay.

Thank you so much.

Bye-bye.

877-929-9673 or Twitter @wayword.

Here’s a little ditty that helps kids think about the twists and turns of language.

Goes, how come you are so early of late?

You used to be behind before, but now you’re first at last.

It’s pretty confusing, but if you think it through, it makes sense.

How come you are so early of late?

You used to be behind before, but now you’re first at last.

Oh yeah, this is about somebody who finally got their sleep schedule under control.

They’re no longer sleeping through the third alarm.

I didn’t even think about the larger meaning.

I was just trying to parse my way through the individual words because if you look at it too closely, it’s very confusing.

Yeah.

877-929-9673.

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

A few weeks ago, we had a conversation with Mary that you’ll probably remember.

She’s 82, and she likes to refer to herself as being middle old.

And we talked about how people feel about other words for reaching that age, like being elderly or being a senior citizen.

And we wondered whether there were better alternatives to those words.

And you know what, Grant?

The very next day, I walked into a store here in San Diego, and there was a cheery young woman behind the counter, and she was telling somebody about their wisdom discount.

And I thought, what?

And, yeah, she looked at the person’s driver’s license and said, oh, you’re over 60.

You get a wisdom discount.

And so I made a point of asking, is that really what it’s called?

Is that your nomenclature?

And she said, absolutely.

We love our older customers.

Wisdom discount.

But that reminds me of a proverb that I once read, which is just because you’ve reached an old age doesn’t mean you’ve learned anything along the way.

But it got me wondering whether the language we use around age will do some changing if it’s good for business.

We got an email from Adam Kellogg who wrote to say that in Portland, Oregon, the local transit agency now uses the term honored citizen.

But it’s not only for people 65 and older.

It’s for people who are low income or Medicare beneficiaries or riders with a mental or physical disability.

Honored citizens in Portland get a discount.

Yeah, I like that terminology.

I like it as an umbrella term, and it also shortens their need to use the fully elaborated phrase of, you know, older people, blah, blah, blah, and people with disabilities and so forth.

Yeah, that’s good.

Yeah, it’s a little self-conscious, but I like it.

And Michael Gardner wrote from Albuquerque, New Mexico, to share his mother’s term for this, and that’s seasoned citizen.

He says—

Seasoned.

Seasoned citizen, which I also like very much.

Her reasoning is that when someone reaches a certain age, she’s 84, they’ve been seasoned with the ingredients of life and are ready to be served.

But I also like seasoned suggesting what you were saying about having experience, accumulated life experience.

Yeah, that’s true.

But seasoning can happen at a young age as well.

But yeah, but in general, the older you are, the more seasoned you are, right?

You’ve been around the sun a few times and made your mistakes in bulk.

Yes, yes.

You have some mileage on you.

But I’m just wondering if in general, sort of like, I’ve thought for quite a while that as boomers move into old age, we’re going to see more and more things like stylish hearing aids or high-tech walking canes.

And I just, I wonder if that kind of thing is going to happen with language as well.

It could be.

Certainly as the technology gets better for all devices, we get lighter materials and smaller electronics.

And the naming that goes with those, maybe the naming companies will come up with generics that will then later be passed on to these generations.

You know, like we had for a while the internet generation.

Maybe something will happen in that direction.

Yeah.

And as long as it’s useful, I would think it would take hold.

So we’ll see.

We’ll see.

We’re still welcoming your contributions toward naming the older generations.

What’s a good overall term that doesn’t sound pejorative for folks of a later generation?

Let us know, 877-929-9673.

Email words@waywordradio.org or talk to us on Twitter @wayword.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, this is Paul from Arlington, Texas.

Hi, Paul. Welcome to the show.

Hi, Paul.

So my grandmother, she’s a dear old Southern lady, and she had a number of fun things that she would say, but she would use this particular phrase almost as a no matter what, this needs to happen or this is going to happen.

Whether we were running late for an appointment or we were trying to set up for an event or something like that, if we were running behind the clock or if there was something important on the line, she would say, needs be the devil meets, or needs be the devil will meet.

And it was kind of like a kick in the pants to the kids, like, hey, let’s get this going on.

This is going to happen one way or the other, so let’s make it work.

Needs be the devil meets.

And I’ve never heard anybody else use it.

I’ve only ever heard her use it, and nobody I’ve spoken to as an adult has ever heard this phrase used.

Needs be the devil meets.

Is that right?

Yes.

It’s an odd little combination of words.

I know.

And then when I say that, does that just make you…

Straighten up and fly right?

Yeah, right.

Get into gear.

Yeah.

It makes me stand up straight.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, you know, I’ve never heard that version, but I wonder if she was using a variation of a much, much older phrase, which is, must needs go that the devil drives. That’s an old, very well-established saying that goes back to the 15th century. He must needs go that the devil drives. And it means sort of that same idea of necessity is compelling you to do something. There are just no two ways about it. Whatever you’ve got to do is unavoidable.

And you see this phrase in the early 15th century, and Shakespeare used it in All’s Well That Ends Well, when Clown is asked why he wants to get married. He says, my poor body, madam, requires it. I am driven on by the flesh, and he must needs go that the devil drives. Meaning, I got to get married because my body is telling me to, and the devil is pushing me to do it. The devil is making me do it. Do you think that maybe she used a version of that, must needs go, that the devil drives? I mean, it sounds like it’s used in the same way, or at least with the same context. And so that very well could be. I had no idea that was that old. She was born in the early, you know, 1920, she was born in 1918. And so she grew up in a rural southern environment. It really sounds like a variation of that phrase, which is a very interesting one linguistically, because the needs here in must needs go is actually functioning as an adverb, meaning necessarily or unavoidably.

It’s an adverb that intensifies that word must, because in Old English, you could turn a noun into an adverb by adding S or ES to the end of it. And so must needs. Wouldn’t you think, Grant, I’m betting that she somehow either misremembered or did her own elaboration on that phrase?

Yeah, it’s had so many centuries that it could have changed before it reached her.

Yeah, it sounds so much like it. These are circumstances beyond your control. And there’s also a notion here of being forced to do the unwanted or maybe even the unexpected.

Yeah, that would be a good example of how she might use that. I remember distinctly she’d like to throw a lot of parties. And if we were over there helping her get ready for her parties, you know, it was hell or high water. This place is going to be ready to go when the guests start arriving.

Sounds like a strong-willed woman.

Oh, yes. Raised right.

Paul, thank you so much for your question. We really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing your memories.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I feel like I’m more inviting now.

Oh, well, that’s great. And now we must needs go.

Yes, I appreciate it very much. Thank you.

All right. Take care.

All right. Thanks.

Bye-bye.

Our show is as much about family history and our shared culture across this continent and around the world as it is about language. Talk to us about where culture meets language in your house or in your life. 877-929-9673. Email words@waywordradio.org or tell us about it on Twitter @wayword.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, my name is Carl and I’m calling from Vancouver, British Columbia.

Hi, Carl. Welcome to the show. I was hoping you could tell me a bit about a particular use of the term meat. I was wondering if it’s common or if there’s any history to using this term, this word to refer to food that isn’t animal flesh and would never be mistaken for it.

This is meat, M-E-A-T, meat?

That’s it. Yes, exactly. Like, you know, chicken or beef or that sort of thing. Basically, what happened was I was on the Internet and I came across this discussion thread where people were talking about little tricks they use to make their lives easier. They call them life hacks. And I said that if you’re boiling an egg, you can put some baking soda in the water, which stops the shell from sticking to the meat. And this other person, I don’t know if they looked at me like I had two heads because it’s the Internet, but they did seem very surprised. They seemed very surprised to see someone use the term meat in reference to an egg. So I was just wondering if that’s an unusual way to put it.

My heavens. So you were talking about separating the shell from the inner part, the edible part of the egg. And you referred to that edible part of the egg as meat.

Exactly. Yes. They were surprised. I think they got what I meant. It was just they were surprised. And, you know, I wouldn’t just talk about an egg like this. It’s pretty much anything where you need to separate like an inedible outer shell from something edible, like an egg or an orange or like a nut, maybe.

Sure, sure. Gosh, I wonder if the people who had a problem with that have access to dictionaries. If you look at Merriam-Webster, in the first definition, it defines meat as something eaten by man or beast for nourishment food. But then the second part of that definition is the edible part of a nut, fruit, or egg.

Oh, really?

Yes, yes. And you’ll find that a similar definition in the Oxford English Dictionary. I mean, meat, the word itself has a really interesting history because it generally referred to food or nourishment in Middle English. What’s really cool is that it became more and more specific over time to refer usually to animal flesh. But in Middle English, you could call vegetables green meat and dairy products white meat. That’s how generic that term was. And I guess generally, I mean, in general usage, when you’re talking about, you know, I’m going to fry up some eggs, you don’t say I’m going to fry up some egg meat or, you know, would you like some poached egg meat? But you were perfectly correct to describe the inner part of the egg as meat.

Oh, OK. Do you know if people use the term this way in languages other than English? Because I was talking to my brother about this. He lives in Japan, and he said that in Japanese, the symbol for meat is found all the time on packages of fruit and stuff like that. Plums, I think, was the example he used.

Interesting. I don’t know of any others. Do you, Grant?

It’s possible. It’s hard when you have the cross-translation if their symbol for meat means exactly the same as our word for meat. It’s hard to know without being fully conversant in both languages.

Right, yeah, I imagine so. I’ll maybe get him to send you a field report.

That would be great. And you can tell your correspondence that you were perfectly within your rights to use that word.

Absolutely.

Yeah, well, that’s encouraging. Thank you.

Thank you, Carl. My pleasure. Take care now. Thanks for calling. Bye.

Well, if there’s a question that’s bugging you, we’d love to hear about it. Call us, 877-929-9673.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, my name is Robin, and I am calling from Yuma, Arizona.

Hi, Robin. Welcome to the show.

Hey, Robin. Thank you so much for having me. So I’m calling because there’s this term, it’s 5011. Well, the way you say it, it’s 5011, but it’s 5011. And so the way that you use it is to describe a perceived innumerable number or something that is a lot or something that you just don’t know how much. So how many jelly beans are in a jar? You know, like I tell my kids, I told you 50-11 times to clean your room. So that’s what 50-11 is.

Yes. Now, I’m from Virginia, and I thought it was like a southern Virginia, North Carolina thing. And then I heard other people say it. But then I also heard someone from like Chicago and Cleveland say it. And I thought that it was like a black Southern thing. But then when I heard someone from Chicago and Cleveland say it, then I was like, wait, it’s a little bit more widespread. And I just kind of chucked it up to the Great Migration. Like maybe they just heard it, you know, grandma say it. And so I’m noticing that it’s like catching up a little bit more steam and more people are saying it, like younger kids are saying it. So I just want to know, like, where did it come from?

Oh, boy. What I grew up was hearing a different version.

My Aunt Mazo from North Carolina used to say, I told you, Martha Ann, 40, 11 times to get your britches on.

So this, Robin, this is just music to my ears to hear your version.

And, you know, both 50-11 and, or as you say, 50-11 and 40-11 have been around for close to 100 years. They have a long history.

And often when you hear 50-11 now, it’s in R&B or hip hop. There’s that Usher song, Burn, that goes, you know, it’s got that line in there. You’ve been gone for too long. It’s been 50-11 days, umpteen hours.

Yeah. There’s a fancy term for these kinds of words. You want to know what it is?

What is it?

Indefinite hyperbolic numerals. Okay. That makes sense. That actually makes sense. Because as you suggested, it’s a large number, not exactly a particular amount, but you know it’s a really big number. So the fancy term for these words is indefinite hyperbolic numerals.

What’s really interesting is that 4011, I think, was the earlier one, and 5011 is a variant of that. But 4011 was originally in the Northeast, and it seems to have migrated down some into the South, because that’s where I hear it more often. And so I’m very interested to hear that you heard 5011 up in Chicago.

There’s some fascinating work that’s been done on these kinds of numbers by a linguistic anthropologist named Stephen Crisimalis, who’s at Wayne State University in Detroit. And he’s done a lot of work on words like 50 lem, 40 lem, and other indefinite hyperbolic numerals like umpteen and umpty.

The most common one of all of these is zillion. And he’s done some fascinating research that shows that zillion was almost exclusively used in the African-American community before World War II. There was about three quarters of the instances of the word zillion in print are in African-American newspapers and magazines. And it was used by a lot of the central figures of the Harlem Renaissance. And it was only later that this term zillion migrated into more general usage.

How cool is that?

Wow. That is awesome.

So I’m just 50-11 kinds of happy that you called with this question, Robin. I’ve got to say, Robin, you sound like you’ve made Martha’s day.

Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Our pleasure. You call us again sometime, all right?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

You take care of yourself now, right? Be well.

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Thanks, Robin. Bye-bye.

If there’s another language that you speak where they use a specific number to mean an indeterminate amount, let us know. 877-929-9673.

Or tell us about it in email, words@waywordradio.org.

Or talk to us on Twitter @wayword.

Thanks to senior producer Stefanie Levine, editor Tim Felten, and production assistant Rachel Elizabeth Weisler.

You can send us messages, subscribe to the podcast and newsletter, and catch up on hundreds of past episodes at waywordradio.org.

Our toll-free line is always open in the U.S. and Canada, 877-929-9673, or email us words@waywordradio.org.

A Way with Words is an independent production of Wayword, Inc., a nonprofit supported by listeners and organizations who are changing the way the world talks about language.

Many thanks to Wayword board member and our friend Bruce Rogow for his help and expertise.

Thanks for listening. I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette. Until next time, goodbye.

Bye-bye.

Thank you.