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Do you know expressions that for years and years you've subconsciously dismissed as mistake , which then one day suddenly you recognize as something familiar, something recurring too often to be random any more? That's what happened to me when in a film an office worker says to the boss, 'You want I should ask him?'
A grammatical fog it is , but I seem to recall hearing it quite often as a fixed expression in place of 'Should I ask him for you? , Do you want me to ask him ?'
Am I right to feel that that is actually a common and legitimate expression (though at that still clearly colloquial)? If so, does it also work with other verbs in place of 'ask' above?
It is something that I've heard all my life, though admittedly mostly in comedies and parodies of very low speech -- thugs, prostitutes, the Three Stooges.
Spoken examples from COCA:
" Get in, " the cop said, " or you want I should throw the cuffs on you?"
CHICO MARX: You want I should steal? ACTRESS: Oh, no, no. It's not stealing.
The rest are in fiction:
1992 Bk:InMyFathers noticed the pall of silence that descended on his passengers? " You want I should pick you up? " " No, thanks, " Ellis said with a
1992 Bk:InMyFathers tipped his hat and leaped out onto the puddled sidewalk. " You want I should wait? " " No thanks, " Birch said from beneath the canvas awning
1992 Bk:RingWinter the brown wombat grumbled, " that's enough of that. You want I should fill in the rest of the story? I could finish this yarn in ten
1994 Mov:Crow 's hot dog. Yecch. # MICKEY # (yelling after) You want I should save this for you? EXT. MOUTH OF ALLEY ACROSS FROM CEMETERY - NIGHT
1994 Bk:FashionablyLate . Then, in a perfect Yiddish accent Defina asked, " You want I should poison them? " Karen had to laugh. Dee dropped into Harlem street talk
1996 ArkansasRev already. So please, I don't want anything more.... You want I should put this stuff back by the way?' # "' Nah, keep
1996 FantasySciFi confused, upside down. # The voice spoke again. " You want I should go down to the waterfront, find another torch? " # Lott hung up
1996 Mov:Alien4 we? # GIRL # It was embarrassing. # MITCH # You want I should hire actors, for Chrissake? These guys are cheap, they work for food
1996 Bk:Chance she hadn't had a lot of practice with it. " You want I should do your job for you? " she said. " Long as it gets
1997 ArkansasRev tensed and his beard rose towards his lowering brows. # " You want I should sing a mushke? " # Vuk poured, and set the bottle down.
1997 SatEvenPost was some stranger snoopin' around. This must be him. You want I should run him off a ways? " # " Thank you, Ben, but
1997 FantasySciFi . # " In and on, " Kaminski said. " You want I should --? " His fingers poised over the keypad, ready to hit the sequence
1998 Bk:AsTimeGoesBy Rick had given him as a bonus the year before. " You want I should shoot him, boss? " shouted Sacha, the big Russian bartender at Pick
1998 Bk:PatchworkPlanet " -- meaning the fact of the open truck bed. " You want I should hunt up a tarp? " he asked. But I said, " Never
2001 MassachRev you want me to do? " said Sal. " Do you want I should fly you to China? " # " I think I need to see a
2003 Analog you could be useful to a guy like me. " " You want I should work for you? " " Thought I would give you the option, anyhow
2003 FantasySciFi the man, Avery, " he said. # " Where you want I should take him? " # " You take him round the better sort of folks
2003 Fantasy & Science Fiction the living as my' little problem.' More fiber, you want I should get? I don't think Metamucil dissolves real good in A-Positive. The technical
2003 Mov:Confidence # (pulling his gun) Back up. # LUPUS # You want I should hold him down? # Gordo throws Lupus a look. # ROTTOVICH # Special
2004 SatEvenPost any guiltier than I feel, " said Terwilliger. " Do you want I should take you dancing? " " It's just, " cried Terwilliger. "
2006 Read nuts. I never get no peace. Lennie: George, you want I should go away and leave you in peace? I could go off in the hills
2007 SouthwestRev really any prizewinner at gay abandon or anything but... " " You want I should sang and dance? " " Ordinarily, one can depend on you to fill
2007 Bk:CoyoteDreams 'm gettin' a kinda freaked-out vibe from you, ma'am. You want I should vacate the premises? " " I want you should tell me you had rubbers
2008 Lilith " Grandma said.' You want to play? " " You want I should make you something to eat? " Aunt Rosie asked, moving heavily toward the
2008 Lilith , then picked up the cards and began shuffling them.' You want I should make you a sandwich? " the voice persisted.' You want some coffee
2008 Lilith rocker. " Let's have a little music. " " You want I should get Seymour's guitar? " Aunt Rosie asked. Seymour, I remembered now
2008 Bk:StopMe was nice. And she'd let it happen. # " You want I should call an ambulance? " the Mexican man ventured. # Jasmine had to cover
2009 FantasySciFi the demon was writing it all down on a pad. " You want I should give you a cleft chin and a little curl of hair down over your forehead
2009 FantasySciFi to horrify them. " What do you want from me? You want I should paint myself silver and blue every Sunday? Come on! " " Monday,
Not being very familiar with the group, I gather from books and movies that this construction is "Brooklyn Jewish". I wonder if this is a "borrow" from Yiddish.
But if not common among Midwestern Methodists, it's hardly a rape of the language. "I'm going to the supermarket. You want anything?" would be pretty common, the Do preceding You being implied.
And "You want I should ask him?" simply uses the phrase as the object of the sentence. "You want I should ask him" asks the preference of the person being questioned, while "Should I ask him?" asks what would be best for the questioner.
I found this example in a book from 1851:
You want I should
And this one from 1867:
You want I should
So, while it may have ALSO been part of immigrant speech a little later in America, these examples indicate it was part of English before any significant influx of Yiddish speakers. To me it sounds like ellipsis of the "do" (do-insertion or do-support auxiliary) and the "that" (reduced relative clause) in the standard "Do you want that I should ... ?"
The practice of reduced relative clauses is very common. Compare:
I hope you will come.
You think she is right.
He explained she was running late.
We said we would wait.
It appears you were mistaken.
I'm relieved no one was hurt.
The sentence I heard sounded foreign.
Also compare the ellipsis not only of do-insertion but also of standard auxiliaries:
You coming or not?
She going to the store?
You want to talk about it?
I think both of these are in play. Perhaps the naturalness of this ellipsis and reduction contributes to the frequency of this remarkable construction.
Glenn said
I found this example in a book from 1851:
You want I shouldAnd this one from 1867:
You want I shouldSo, while it may have ALSO been part of immigrant speech a little later in America, these examples indicate it was part of English before any significant influx of Yiddish speakers.
We didn't need much of an "influx" to get jews using Yiddish in the boroughs of NYC. There was a Hebrew school started there in 1808.
Google reports in 1835, "Diary" by Bettina von Arnin says "You want, I should tell you of him more, all? - how dare I? - most too grievous it would be," but on further search, it appears that the Harvard library has an 1835 book "Tagebuch" written in German and published in Berlin. Tagebuch appears to translate as "Diary".
So I think it quite possible that this construction is common in Germany, with Yiddish being basically a dialect of Yiddish - which is what you're suggesting, that Yiddish-speakers may have popularized the structure as the immigrated, and as it was used by creative people in the entertainment industries. I'm skating on thin ice here, and I don't mean to be perpetuating stereotypes, and so I'll apologize in advance for my ignorance and any insensitivity. Is Yiddish used by most Jews worldwide, or is it mostly spoken by the Ashkenazi?
Yiddish originated with the Ashkenazim. There is a Sephardic counterpart, commonly called Ladino or Judezmo. Both Yiddish and Ladino spread from their original regional roots under much the same circumstances when speakers dispersed worldwide. Yiddish has become the the most widely spoken Jewish language after Hebrew, but is far from being spoken by most Jews.
There were also other languages that developed among the Jewish populations in the context of other surrounding languages, but most of these languages no longer have native speakers. One example is Krymchak, but there were many others. Most of them are now referred to as Judeo-x where x is the surrounding language.
Jewish Languages Org Map
Yiddish Around the World
[edit: added the following references]
Omniglot on Yiddish
Omniglot on Ladino
Omniglot on Bukhori
Omniglot on Juhuri
Omniglot on Karaim
Turns out there is quite a great deal of discussions on 'You want I should' already. But none as extensive as here. So thanks .
There is a definite thread of Jewishness through most of those discussions. But then, all being more or less speculative , those many mentions of Jewishness are almost natural, if one only contemplates American literatures and entertainment arts, and how these can be such primary resorts from which to speculate of the culture itself.
What's curious to me is the combination of want and should, the former a strong and willful word, the latter subdue, tentative, subjunctive like. That contrast seems there on purpose: to underline the speaker's supplicant position , or at least an eagerness to be extra solicitous and pleasing to the other person.
Martha Barnette
Grant Barrett
Grant Barrett
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