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Well, holy crap! Somebody chase her down and stone her!
Actually, now that I look at my dictionaries, I see that the first definition of flat is “horizontal, level” in Collins and in 2a of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate as “having a continuous horizontal surface.”
It's convenient to decide that a word has just one meaning so you can leap on someone and score cheap points to make yourself feel good but it's the wrong kind of behavior.
Grant Barrett said:
Well, holy crap! Somebody chase her down and stone her!
Actually, now that I look at my dictionaries, I see that the first definition of flat is “horizontal, level” in Collins and in 2a of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate as “having a continuous horizontal surface.”
It's convenient to decide that a word has just one meaning so you can leap on someone and score cheap points to make yourself feel good but it's the wrong kind of behavior.
Well, I agree that flat can mean the same thing as "level," but I think I'd cut rsteiner a little bit of slack, since it seems that that meaning of "flat" doesn't get used nearly as often these days, and that "flat" now usually refers to the surface of an object, and does not necessarily mean that the object is horizontal relative to the earth. I know I usually hear / read "level" used for that meaning.
I don't think I'm going to cut slack on this one. If someone is going to complain, they're going to be held to a high standard of evidence. Especially given the context of the conversation, in which it was really very clear what we were talking about and what was meant. To misunderstand what Martha said you have to choose to misunderstand. That is, you have to want to pick a fight over nothing for no good reason at all.
As for the comment "it seems that that meaning of 'flat' doesn't get used nearly as often these days": prove that. I don't think you can. You made it up and added the "seems" as a hedge word to help cover yourself.
This isn't one of the places on the Internet where one can just make things up (or offer uninformed peeves) and expect them to fly.
Grant Barrett said:
I don't think I'm going to cut slack on this one. If someone is going to complain, they're going to be held to a high standard of evidence. Especially given the context of the conversation, in which it was really very clear what we were talking about and what was meant. To misunderstand what Martha said you have to choose to misunderstand. That is, you have to want to pick a fight over nothing for no good reason at all.
As for the comment “it seems that that meaning of ‘flat' doesn't get used nearly as often these days”: prove that. I don't think you can. You made it up and added the “seems” as a hedge word to help cover yourself.
This isn't one of the places on the Internet where one can just make things up (or offer uninformed peeves) and expect them to fly.
Well, no, I don't have any proof of that, it's just my own personal observation. I did NOT "make it up," and I would appreciate an apology for your insult to my integrity.
Grant Barrett said:
So you can't prove it but you didn't make it up. Where did you get that bit of false information, then?
Look, I said it was a personal observation. No, I cannot prove it, because it's just that -- a personal observation. I did not make it up, because I OBSERVED it. Maybe I'm an anomaly, maybe it's a regional thing, I don't know, but, just because I can't prove it by citing some reference, that does not mean that I "made it up."
I'd still appreciate an apology.
Sheesh, you try to be friendly...
Alright, you can have it: I apologize. I did not mean to offend you.
I meant only to knock the conversation up a level where we could discuss opinion vs. evidence. It's one of the things that we strive for on the show: to understand the difference between "I don't like it" or "I think..." and "It's provably wrong" or "It's objectively not good." Too often, the first two of those statements are wrongly mistaken for one of the last two.
Grant Barrett said:
Alright, you can have it: I apologize. I did not mean to offend you.
I meant only to knock the conversation up a level where we could discuss opinion vs. evidence. It's one of the things that we strive for on the show: to understand the difference between “I don't like it” or “I think…” and “It's provably wrong” or “It's objectively not good.” Too often, the first two of those statements are wrongly mistaken for one of the last two.
The thing that really gets me is that, I actually agreed with you all along, and I agree that Martha's meaning was clear from the context. I just thought you were a bit overly harsh before and were jumping to conclusions about rsteiner's intent. That's all.
Good grief, guys*!!!
Let us not split hairs! Language should bring us together not asunder!
I think “flat” and “level” can mean the same thing depending on the context. And the context in which Martha used it was pretty damn clear, I'll tell ya that much!
In French “plat” can mean either “flat” (with which it is a cognate) or “level”. In English, the other uses of “flat” to mean “deflated” or “not bumpy” is likewise a contextual matter. I am 100% certain that Martha didn't have a saggy surface that you can roll a ball across in mind when she chose to use the word “flat”. “Flat” and “level” are NOT entirely different. Martha's choice of the word “flat” was NOT an error. That usage was NOT wrong. But half the choplogic that's been going on in this topic IS wrong.
C'mon, people! Lighten up… “You buy them books and all they do is quarrel with each other!” Mercy!
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*Pardon the alliteration.
Well, I didn't think my original post would cause such an uproar and I'm sorry for that. Of course I knew what Martha meant by the context and I'm sure that everybody else did as well but for somebody who works in construction, flat and level are not the same thing in practical terms. Something that is level will be flat but something that is flat is not necessarily level. For a show that devotes itself to not just the proper meaning of words but also a usage that keeps meanings clear, I'm not sure why anybody should object to my statements other than that I should have made it clear that I was teasing Martha and not really chastising her.
Wordsmith said:
Good grief, guys*!!!
Let us not split hairs! Language should bring us together not asunder!I think “flat” and “level” can mean the same thing depending on the context. And the context in which Martha used it was pretty damn clear, I'll tell ya that much!
In French “plat” can mean either “flat” (with which it is a cognate) or “level”. In English, the other uses of “flat” to mean “deflated” or “not bumpy” is likewise a contextual matter. I am 100% certain that Martha didn't have a saggy surface that you can roll a ball across in mind when she chose to use the word “flat”. “Flat” and “level” are NOT entirely different. Martha's choice of the word “flat” was NOT an error. That usage was NOT wrong. But half the choplogic that's been going on in this topic IS wrong.
C'mon, people! Lighten up… “You buy them books and all they do is quarrel with each other!” Mercy!
—–
*Pardon the alliteration.
I'm perfectly willing to disagree amicably. I do NOT appreciate being called a liar, though, and, the crazy thing is, I agreed that that was a perfectly legit usage of "flat." I was beginning to wonder if Grant just woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or something...
felixblackcat said:
I do NOT appreciate being called a liar
I'm sorry, did I call you a liar?…
then, (s)he said:
I'm perfectly willing to disagree amicably.
In general? Or on a specific issue here?
At any rate, let's just drop it. I don't think we're getting anywhere bickering about who said what to whom and how viciously… The point is: Martha's use of the word “flat” piqued rsteiner and (s)he felt compelled to show the extent of his/her perturbation by complaining about the supposed lack of an isosemantic bond between the words “level” and “flat”. We've already seen how fastidious people can get over pronunciation (viz. to-MAY-to : to-MAH-to) so let's just call it a day and move on to something useful to discuss. Fair enough?
—THE END.—
Martha Barnette
Grant Barrett
Grant Barrett
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