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Some teachers are using a controversial tactic to get young students reading: They let their pupils choose which books to read for class. Does it work? Also, should that line at the grocery store checkout read 15 items or less or fewer? And is the expression these ones grammatically incorrect?
This episode first aired October 17, 2009. Listen here:
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The owner of a yarn store in Juneau says a customer corrected her when she pointed out a special collection of buttons and said, "You should check out these ones." Is it incorrect to say these ones instead of just these?
A Syracuse woman wonders how bread and butter pickles got their name.
What do you call that jarring sensation when you see a radio personality for the first time, and he looks nothing like what you expected? The hosts talked about it in a past episode. Listeners responded with more words for this phenomenon.
Quiz Guy John Chaneski was rummaging around the A Way with Words Lost and Found Department, and returned with a quiz based on lost items and their owners.
The sign over the checkout lane says 15 Items or Less. A listener is adamant that it should say 15 Items or Fewer.
A Texas listener recounts an ongoing debate in her family's kitchen over the exact definition of the word spatula. Is it the kitchen tool used to spread icing and level measuring cups? Something you use to flip a pancake? That item with the plastic handle and the rubber blade for scraping a bowl? When she gets together with the in-laws to cook, the caller says, the request "Hand me a spatula" leads to confusion.
In Philadelphia, the expression the big mahoff, means "a bigshot," as in "Who do you think you are, the big mahoff?" But just what is a mahoff?
A shivaree, also spelled charivari, is a raucous, good-natured hazing for newlyweds. A discussion here about that word prompted lots of listeners to write in with their own stories about shivarees. Martha shares some of them.
In Britain, Canada, and some other English-speaking countries, the last letter of the alphabet is not zee, but zed. A caller who grew up in Guyana wonders why.
Sure, the present tense of sneak is easy, but what about the past? Is it sneaked or snuck?
A law student wonders about the origin of the word widget.
Is the word financial pronounced with a long I in the first syllable?
There's a story going around that the word posh derives from "Port Out, Starboard Home." Don't fall for it.
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This is the first time i've ever done this so I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.
I'm commenting on the X Y and Zed segment.
As a Canadian, I grew up with a cultural inferiority complex being utterly overwhelmed by the amount of US media flowing into Canada. We had a few sources of pride - hockey, Lorne Greene and good manners - but not much more. So I resorted to noble attempts to resist what I saw as US cultural imperialism. I'm older now and more easy-going, but your segment reminded me of how I've deeply internalized those areas of resistance.
Even now, pronouncing the last letter as 'Zee' and removing the 'u' in words like 'colour' evokes my private battle to maintain proper English in the face of the 'dumbing down' of the language by the big oafs to the South. Even though that meant calling it 'EEE-ZED Off Oven Cleaner'! I'm actually impressed that 'Zee' goes back to Noah Webster - I had always thought it was a marketing invention.
While I'm on the subject, I still bristle at the use of the term 'American' to describe citizens of the United States. Why did US'ers appropriate that word from other residents of the Americas like Venezuela, Honduras and Canada? That's why I dread Olympic years.
When I married my Brooklyn-born wife 18 years ago, she regarded all of my Canadian efforts as pathetic. And so, years of contempt had forced me into a more passive underground resistance. But your segment has reminded me that it's still there, eh?
Raphael,
I think there is a simple reason that 'American' describe citizens of the United States of America. It is the only country in the western hemisphere which has 'America' explicitly in its name; there is not Venezuela of America, American Honduras, or Canada of North America nor do there need to be since they are unique with their own names.
By the way, would you rather call US citizens "Uniters" or "Staters" or something else derived from the country's formal name, the United States of America?
Emmett
The full official name of Mexico translates as "United Mexican States" (Estados Unidos Mexicanos), so the only part we can use to distinguish the USA is the "America" part. Frank Lloyd Wright was fond of the term "Usonian", if that's of any help to you, and it seems HL Mencken collected a whole rack of suggestions (Columbard, Fredonian, Unitedstateser), none of which managed to catch on.
As to the absence of any other country with the word "America(n)" in its name, I'm somehow reminded of a scene early in the movie "To Sir With Love" where Thackeray (played by Sidney Poitier) meets the other teachers for the first time. As soon as he starts to speak, one of them blurts out "Oh, an American!" Thackeray corrects them by saying he's actually "British, from British Guiana", which because of its location in the New World would still make him an "American" to many people despite it being (at the time) part of the British empire.
I had lots of stream-of-consciousness (if not purely random) thoughts while listening to the podcast. I'll try to stick to one topic per post.
BREAD AND BUTTER PICKLES
I did some snooping on the Web and found these comments that may give hints about the origin of the name.
1a. I read that during the depression people said they were so good one could eat them as a sandwich between bread and butter.
1b. My grandmother used to make raw B&B pickles. She prepared the brine and spices, put sliced cucumbers in the jars, poured the brine over the cucumbers, added fresh dill from her garden, then topped it with a bit of homemade bread. She placed the jars under her peach tree for a day or two to "process." She never said why she added the bread, but I suspect it had to do with the curing process.
(both from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-bread-and-butter-pickles.htm)
2. ...for what it's worth, My grandma always told me that bread and butter pickles were named that way because in the depression era, people would make sandwiches out of the pickle, bread, and butter and eat them that way.
(from http://simplyrecipes.com/recipes/bread_and_butter_pickles/)
3. Legend has it that bread-and-butter pickles got their name during the Great Depression. The sweet, crunchy cukes were said to be a staple because they were cheap, shelf stable and could become a meal when sandwiched between bread and butter.
(from http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/15/FDM517J3BL.DTL)
By the way, you missed a good opportunity to tie in the music with the topic: Since you reached back to the '60s for a tune, you could have played "Bread and Butter" by the Newbeats. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m1cP0ez_S8)
More stream-of-consciousness (perhaps random) thoughts...
POSH (tangent) - During the discussion of "posh," your reference to "golf" (not an acronym for "Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden") reminded me of one friend who joked about that game: Referring to the reputation of golfers for foul language, he quipped, "The only reason they named it 'golf' is because all the other four-letter words were taken."
More stream-of-consciousness (perhaps random) thoughts…
SPATULA - I looked up the word "spatula" online at dictionary.com and found an interesting history of the word:
spatula
1525, from L. spatula "broad piece, spatula," dim. of spatha "broad, flat tool or weapon," from Gk. spathe "broad blade" (see spade (1)). Erroneous form spattular is attested from 1607.
(Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper )
Let's hope the caller and her in-laws don't escalate their argument into a fight with weapons – spatulas, swords, kitchen knives, or otherwise!
I do agree that although several items could rightly be called "spatula," their communication would be facilitated by agreeing on a more specific name for each implement, so a request for a particular one would be clear and unambiguous.
WIDGET - The word "widget" now also has a technical meaning in the computer world. I found this at dictionary.com:
widg•et
1. A small mechanical device or control; a gadget.
2. An unnamed or hypothetical manufactured article.
3. a. An element of a GUI, such as a text box or button, that displays information or settings that can be entered or altered by the user.
b. A program that performs some simple function, such as providing a weather report or stock quote, and can be accessed from a computer desktop, webpage, mobile phone or subscription television service.
[Perhaps alteration of gadget.]
The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Using definition 3b, you could have a "widget" on your computer screen that displays the latest news headlines, sports scores, weather report, stock market averages, etc.
In response to an either/or question, you said both options were acceptable. I might have put it differently:
When I was a kid, my grandfather would tease us by looking at us straight in the eye and, in a very serious voice, ask, "So tell me, do you walk to school or carry your lunch?" We learned the best answer (especially to tease him back) was, "Yes." LOL
johng423 said:
In response to an either/or question, you said both options were acceptable. I might have put it differently:
When I was a kid, my grandfather would tease us by looking at us straight in the eye and, in a very serious voice, ask, "So tell me, do you walk to school or carry your lunch?" We learned the best answer (especially to tease him back) was, "Yes." LOL
As someone who works in a field where the difference between inclusive and exclusive "or" is often vitally important, it bothers me that there's no clear trend for interpreting it in a less technical context. On the one hand, you may have one cookie or one candy bar from a parent to a child almost certainly excludes an offer of both.
But if your boss calls you into his office and says I'll fire you if you show up to work drunk or naked....
Can anyone find a source that states that it is acceptable to use "10 items or less"? The phrase "less than 10,000 items" sounds completely wrong to me. As far as I know less can only be used with numbers in mathematics because they are abstract. Also, it would be used with money, time, and distance because they usually refer to less than a full unit. If I said, "I can do that job in less than three days" it could be done in two days and 4 hours. It wouldn't necessarily mean it would be done in one or two days.
Are "Martha's tomb" and Grant's vineyard" a mistake? Maybe it's because I live in RI, but I thought "Martha's Vineyard" and "Grant's Tomb" would be the most recognizable places. An internet search shows all four.
Dante
Dante, here's an impeccable source who says "10 items or less" is just fine. Wendalyn Nichols is a professional copy editor and lexicographer, as well as a colleague and friend of mine. She is most certainly not alone in her opinion.
The distinction between less and fewer is way too difficult to maintain once numbers get thrown in.
This jug can carry two gallons of moonshine or less.
I can only carry three gallons of milk or fewer.
With numbers, the argument to separate countables and measurables becomes too flimsy to hold water.
I read that link and the comments made by other users. I really have to side with "Paul at North Gare" as I think his argument is more logical. But that's just my opinion.
I just discovered this show the other day and I love it. In the past four days I have listened to about 30 hours worth of this show on my Blackberry during work. According to my podcast software I have 106 episodes left, so it will take me a few more weeks to catch up. I look forward to it.
Thanks
Dante
As I struggle to catch up with my podcast backlog, I've now managed to listen to this show, and I have one for John Chaneski's "Lost and Found" game. I was unfortunately unable to find a common possessive expression for my own name, but for my father's profession, I found a "helper".
(Additional hint: for Dad, "Draney" would be considered an "aptronym".)
Aren't there no more rules anymore?
Just listened to your last broadcast and the two of you OKd the use of "snuck." Then a guy called in complaining about "few" and "less" and you made a weasley weak argument that his complaint wasn't justified. This happens all the time now. Don't you understand? We were taught rules in high school that we've carried with us all of these years. When someone breaks those rules it allows us to feel morally superior. How can we feel a part of an elite group, if we don't have code words that let other people know we're part of the club? I personally get major feeling superior points whenever I hear the subjunctive used incorrectly. "If I was a rich man" sends chills of moral superiority up my spine.
And think of the damage you are doing to reputation of the English teachers of the world who taught us English with a "this is right and this is wrong" approach. How can I continue to hold Mr. Gurley in high esteem when I realize the tantrum he threw when I used the word "Snuck" was not justified? Next, you'll be telling us it's ok to use "ain't" Or have you already done that and I missed it?
I hope you know how disturbing your program is to those of us who thought we knew what was right and wrong.It means we have to keep growing and learning and that's a distressing thought. Fortunately, we have you two to help us.
Garry Shirts
Martha Barnette
Grant Barrett
Grant Barrett
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