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amcrory said:
Thought of a pretty common exception to the “periods and commas always go inside the quotes†rule: titles of works.
For example: Growing up, I loved the movie “Chitty Chitty Bang Bangâ€. Because the punctuation isn't a part of the title, it should live outside the quotes, no?
thx!
-Andy in North Park
American style guides will tell you to put the period inside the quotes even there--it's a very consistent, long-standing tradition, and totally WRONG, as you point out. British style guides do it correctly, putting the quoted stuff inside quotes and the non-quoted stuff outside, with no special rule for commas and periods. While I'm usually happy to follow convention for its own sake, and I honor (with no U) American English as highly as that used elsewhere, this is one case where long-standing tradition just needs to be thrown out the window. As Grant points out, computer programmers (and many technology-related magazines and web sites) already do this, using American styles for everything except the stupid, wrong, and pointless quote rule. It's time for another American revolution, and this time, we should do it the British way.
I even went so far as to insist upon it in my last published article--I wouldn't let them publish it unless they put the commas where they belong, dammit, and not blindly follow a style guide that's obsolete and counter to common sense and reason.
Revolt! Put your commas where they belong!
martha said:
Lee, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
Seriously, I'm all ears/eyes: What exactly is the problem with the American style? Are you saying this specifically because of the computer-language problem, or are there other reasons?
To me it's simply a matter of clarity and precision: quotation marks mean something, namely, that the stuff inside is a quotation. The American rule simply violates that for no good reason. I suppose some might consider the visual esthetics of the text to be a valid reason, but I don't think that should override precise expression.
And yes, I admit that I'm a computer programmer, so maybe I'm biased.
martha said:
Hi, Mary Clare — What WAS my example? I forget. 🙂
I noticed this, too. Martha's example was a statement in the form of "I wonder who said, "Blood is thicker than water." I would have thought that the proper place for the question mark was nowhere, although a question is implied. Had she said, "Who said "Blood is thicker than water"?" the question mark would go outside of the quote, (and inside the quoted quote . . .)
By the way, am I supposed to use a comma in ". . . she said, "Who ...", or are such commas becoming obsolete?
About lunch, supper and dinner: In our family (German-American heritage, in Milwaukee), "dinner" generally implied a more formal or elegant meal. Breakfast, lunch and supper were everyday meals, but we regularly had "Sunday dinner" at mid-day. Sunday dinner usually included a roast of some kind, and was served on fine china with silverware. Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter "dinners" were and are also served on china, and the name would apply regardless of whether it was a mid-day or evening meal, although it was almost invariably mid-day.
We continue to use "dinner" to connote a somewhat more formal occasion. We invite friends to "dinner", which is understood to be a somewhat formal evening meal. An invitation to "supper", on the other hand, implies a simpler meal.
LeoKulonosen said:
I am so glad you brought up this euphemism. I had never heard this until I was in my twenties. I first heard it from my boss who was a recent immigrant from Ireland. In fact from county Cork near Limerick. I was glad to hear you reinforce the notion that the expression comes from Ireland. Though I guess it doesn't really matter other than when you hear, “I'm going to see a man about a horse” or the even more common “I need to see a man about a horse” you hear a very lilting rapid fire phrase “see a man about a horse”.
When you pointed out that there was an older saying about a dog, it only reinforces the argument that it is the rhythm of the phrase that is important. It is a pity when you read these words, you cannot hear them spoken. It is like reading Oscar Wilde aloud. It is better done with a Limerick accent.
Grant Barrett said:
If a dictator dictates, and an aviator aviates, then does a commentator “commentate”? A caller complains that this last word gives him the willies. Does an alligator alligate?
I got to thinking about this a number of years ago, wondering precisely how then-President Bush's duties had changed when he went from governing to presiding. That led me to the question of what exactly a mayor does.
And then I hit on an analogous foreign term. "Minister" is both verb and agent noun, identical in both contexts. How many other job titles are there that are exactly the same as what the jobholder does?
My father used to say that he was "going to see a man about a mule." I rather prefer the alliteration of that one.
I've also heard "drain the lizard," and "drain the tanks." In our household, we use the term "drain the dogs" to mean that we are going to take the dogs out for a pee.
As for that pesky comma and quote thing - when type was handset bits of lead, you could snuggle the quotes up to the commas and they didn't look so awkward, but when desktop publishing came along, and commas had to have a vertical space to the top of the line, they started to look weird. ," would look better correctly kerned.
I lived in Nottingham for a while and the expression there was " I'm going to turn me bike around" which I think referred to the fact that the privy was in the back yard and that's where the bike would be parked. also, maybe co-incidentally, the big employer in Nottingham was "the Raleigh" bike factory.
Alan Brown
About breakfast, lunch and dinner...
I grew up in Boston in a family of Irish descent. Our midday meal was lunch, always, and not the main meal of the day. The main meal was in the evening, and it was called supper. Or, actually, we called it suppa. On Thanksgiving, Christmas or other special holidays we had a big festive meal sometime in the early afternoon - those ones were dinner, eh, I mean, dinna. 😉
dinner, supper - I think it was a story in an old Readers Digest about different uses of these words.
The woman had invited her nephew over for dinner. He arrived at her house around 4 PM and she was furious.
"Where have you been? You were supposed to be here at 1 o'clock," she reprimanded.
"But you said dinner - that's the evening meal," he replied.
"No, the evening meal is called supper. Dinner is the midday meal," she corrected him.
"Oh... Well, then, what's for supper?" he asked, trying to appease her.
"Dinner!" she retorted.
(I wonder if he had to eat cold food that night.)
Martha Barnette
Grant Barrett
Grant Barrett
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