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Anyone here have any clues how "latitude" came to mean "flexibility," as in: We've got a lot of latitude on this design.
And why was it "latitude" that took that role and not "longitude?" Could not find anything at my usual etymology sites.
Ngrams shows "lot of latitude" being used starting around 1915, but didn't find ANY cases of "lot of longitude." Don't know if that helps.
[Edit: Just realized I misspelled "flexibility" in the title of this post. For some reason, spell-check doesn't operate there. Would be nice if we could edit titles. Can a Moderator correct titles?]
[Edit: It appears the title has now been corrected. Maybe a retroactive automated spell-check? Or was it a Moderator? How does that work?]
The OxED has this entry 'latitude = flexibility':
3.
a. Freedom from narrow restrictions; width or liberality of construction or interpretation; tolerated or permitted variety of action or opinion.
1605 Bacon Of Aduancem. Learning ii. sig. Dd4, Allowing..that Latitude, which is agreeable, and familiar vnto diuine Prophecies, being of the nature of their Author, with whom a thousande yeares are but as one day.
The 1605 date is 200 years after 1. and the geographical use below.
The OxED has this note (edit: the preview did not seem to have a problem with the Greek characters that are now in question marks):
[In their original geographical use latitude (Latin latitudo, Greek ??????) and longitude (Latin longitudo, Greek ?????) meant quite literally the ‘breadth’ and ‘length’ of the oblong map of the known world; this literal sense remained even in the expression ‘degrees of latitude and longitude’ (?????? ??????? ??? ??????). By a natural development the terms afterwards came (in late Latin, apparently not yet in Greek) to denote the distance of any place, in the breadthwise and lengthwise direction respectively, from the circle assumed as the origin of measurement.]
I note that someone who is flexible is more willing to go to greater lengths (or go the extra mile) than someone who is rigid or inflexible. And, although we do not use the word 'longitude' in this context, it does seem that flexible seems to apply to both directions ('breadth' and 'length').
Yeah, I thought about that possible etymology. But I got hung up on the difference between "latitude" and "latitude lines."
The former has a limit at +/- 90 degrees. But the "latitude lines" themselves are what go around the globe in a never-ending circle. "Longitude" never ends, and repeats cyclically, but "longitude lines" are what end at the poles.
The reason for the use of "latitude" = "flexibility" is still unclear to me. I agree that the meaning must be connected to the degree of flexibility, but have to wonder if "longitude" might have been the better choice. Does "we've got a lot of longitude on this design" scan? I think not, but I'm still not sure why.
Heimhenge said
I agree that the meaning must be connected to the degree of flexibility, but have to wonder if "longitude" might have been the better choice. Does "we've got a lot of longitude on this design" scan? I think not, but I'm still not sure why.
Let's use it and create our own expression. Report here how others react.
Just found something on this that I'd missed earlier. This source claims the use of "latitude" as a synonym for "flexibility" dates to the 15th century. Unfortunately, it says nothing about the reason for choosing "latitude" over "longitude." Funny that Ngrams (see my earlier post in this thread) only shows it in use like that since 1915.
I've given up on this one and will simply accept it as an arbitrary choice between the two ways one could express "degrees of freedom."
That said, I'll be attending a club meeting tonite during which I need to make a short presentation. I'll use "longitude" in the figurative sense for "flexibility" and see what kind of reactions I get. This group consists of mainly amateur astronomers, so their reaction may be scientifically biased, but I'll report back here what those reactions were.
Dick Said: Let's use it and create our own expression. Report here how others react.
OK, I tried that out last night at our astronomy club meeting, admittedly a biased group (15 people, ages 40-70). My specific statement was "We have a lot of longitude in how to set up this event." The immediate reaction was: everyone noticed, looked puzzled, then someone ventured "Ahh ... I think you mean 'latitude'?" My response was "What's wrong with 'longitude'? They both measure 'degrees of freedom.'" The unanimous reply was "But I've never heard that before ... it's always been 'latitude.'" I asked why that was, and nobody could provide an answer beyond "That's just the way it's always been."
I suspect the results would have been different with a younger group, who might have just silently accepted that this was just a "new expression" they hadn't yet encountered, and never thought of challenging a person who should by now know the language. Your mileage may vary.
I think I see why it didn't quite fly. The specific usage was "we have a lot of longitude in how to set up this event". This means that you were applying the term to a course of action, and the implied degree of freedom was how much that course could deviate from some hypothetical middle road. Thus, "latitude", because you're free to move a certain amount from side to side along the course. "Longitude" would describe how much freedom you had to deviate forward and back along that same course, i.e., whether you could start a bit later, proceed a bit faster, and the like.
Ron Draney said: Thus, "latitude", because you're free to move a certain amount from side to side along the course. "Longitude" would describe how much freedom you had to deviate forward and back along that same course, i.e., whether you could start a bit later, proceed a bit faster, and the like.
Not quite sure how "latitude" equates to "side to side." Sure, it's being used metaphorically, but the way most maps and globes are displayed, "latitude" would equate to an "up and down" motion. But longitude does seem to fit with "forward and back," especially since movement across longitude results in a change in local time. I don't think you'll find that usage in any dictionary though.
In the course of my research on this question, I did come across an alternate use of "longitude." Not as a noun, but as an adjective. Example: The "longitudinal dimensions" of a structure (whatever its compass orientation). Here's the Ngram for "longitudinal dimensions." Been in use for some time, and a cursory check of the referenced books shows exactly that usage.
Upon seeing the discussion progress, it is apparent I should have included more of the OxED definition of 'latitude' than I did in my first post. Here is its first few lines:
I. Breadth, width.
1.
a. Transverse dimension; extent as measured from side to side; breadth, width of a surface, as opposed to length; also occas. spaciousness. Now only jocular.1398 J. Trevisa tr. Bartholomew de Glanville De Proprietatibus Rerum (1495) viii. xxiv. 335 Orion..his lengthe and longitude stretchyth nyghe to the brede and latitude of thre sygnes.
Note here is the 200-year earlier quote for 'breadth' than for 'flexibility' that I mentioned in my first reply.
Here is how I put this all together: While a latitude line is a constant distance away from the equator, it goes across the 'breadth' (width) of a map (with North pointing upwards). So, in etymology, 'latitude' is a description of how the line runs, not our current understanding of 'latitude' being a measure of angular distance from the equator.
Contrary to the non-use of 'longitude = flexibility': in describing wave phenomena, physicists use 'longitudinal' and not 'latitudinal'. (Sound waves are longitudinal and light waves are 'transverse'. Seismic P-waves are like sound and S-waves are like light.)
Ron Draney said: From Latin latus, ="side".
Can't argue with that. But it brings me back to my earlier quandary ... when the term "latitude" is used as a metaphor for "flexibility" is it derived from the latitude lines themselves, or the measure of latitude. The two are perpendicular, which is why I'm having trouble with the "side to side" interpretation. EmmettRedd echoes that confusion is his last post. And then he goes on to say:
EmmettRedd said: Contrary to the non-use of 'longitude = flexibility': in describing wave phenomena, physicists use 'longitudinal' and not 'latitudinal'. (Sound waves are longitudinal and light waves are 'transverse'. Seismic P-waves are like sound and S-waves are like light.)
So here we see another application of "longitude" (as an adjective) that apparently has nothing to do with the original noun. Why aren't light waves described as "latitudinal?" Why was "transverse" chosen to describe their geometry? This is a very fuzzy sort of etymology to my thinking. I'm totally confused on this one.
Heimhenge said
Can't argue with that. But it brings me back to my earlier quandary ... when the term "latitude" is used as a metaphor for "flexibility" is it derived from the latitude lines themselves, or the measure of latitude. The two are perpendicular, which is why I'm having trouble with the "side to side" interpretation. EmmettRedd echoes that confusion is his last post.
While I might be echoing the confusion and write confusingly, I don't think I am confused.
It appears we can all agree that the Greek and Latin roots mean side-to-side or 'breadth'. It is this 'breadth' that becomes flexibility. In the geographic sense this meaning is retained in the extent of the latitude lines, that is, they go across the 'breadth' of the page.
I happily note that you understand that measures are perpendicular to lines of constancy. Now, this perpendicularity is where the confusion has its root. While two cities may have the same latitude (they are on the same East-West line and have the same latitudinal measure). Here is the ambiguity; we are lazy speakers. We use the same phraseology that is before the parenthetical statement above to mean both of the phrases in the parenthetical statement. The equivalence with the first one is precise while the equivalence with the second leaves out the word 'measure' and substitutes the noun for the adjective. The same lazy phrase then means two perpendicular (I might prefer the word 'orthogonal') things and is, hence, ambiguous.
And then he goes on to say:
EmmettRedd said: Contrary to the non-use of 'longitude = flexibility': in describing wave phenomena, physicists use 'longitudinal' and not 'latitudinal'. (Sound waves are longitudinal and light waves are 'transverse'. Seismic P-waves are like sound and S-waves are like light.)
So here we see another application of "longitude" (as an adjective) that apparently has nothing to do with the original noun.
It has everything to do with the original noun meaning 'length'. The variation of sound waves and seismic P-wave are along the direction the wave travels, that is, their length.
Why aren't light waves described as "latitudinal?" Why was "transverse" chosen to describe their geometry? This is a very fuzzy sort of etymology to my thinking. I'm totally confused on this one.
I, for one, am happy that light waves are described as transverse rather than latitudinal. We have too many binary objects carrying names that sound too close together or start with the same letter. The only one that come to mind right now is flotsam and jetsam--keeping them straight is a chore as are others of a similar pairing. 'Transverse' and 'longitudinal' waves are immensely easier to keep straight than 'latitudinal' and 'longitudinal' waves would be.
(I also have a Rant about how the phrase 'acceleration due to gravity' contributes to confusion in introductory physics students which I can publish in another thread, if anyone cares. In it, I claim that the poor language leads to poorly performed physics. I have similar verbal rants about the proper prepositions to use with voltage, current, and resistance.)
EmmettRedd said: The same lazy phrase then means two perpendicular (I might prefer the word 'orthogonal') things and is, hence, ambiguous.
I'm glad we agree on the ambiguity between the lines themselves and what they measure. It really depends on how the phrase is constructed. Not so sure "orthogonal" is any better than "perpendicular" though, as geometry tells us two curved lines can intersect at 90° on a curved surface. I tend to use the two words pretty much interchangeably, but find fewer people know the meaning of "orthogonal."
EmmettRedd further said: It has everything to do with the original noun meaning 'length'. The variation of sound waves and seismic P-wave are along the direction the wave travels, that is, their length.
Sure, as "longitude" derives from the Latin "longitudo" (length, duration), I see your point. I was referring, incorrectly, to the geographic sense of "longitude" and ignoring the fact that many scientific terms are derived directly from Latin/Greek. But both longitudinal waves and transverse waves have their wavelength (note length) measured in the direction of propagation. So I guess one could say that "transverse waves have their wavelength measured longitudinally" and be perfectly correct, albeit a bit murky.
This I why I often used the term "compressional waves" when explaining wave types to students. Transverse waves, for whatever reason, were always far easier for the students to conceptualize. And all you need is a rope to demonstrate transverse waves. I later hit on the idea of using a slinky to demonstrate longitudinal/compressional waves, and that helped a LOT.
Finally, yes, I'd love to participate in a thread on careless scientific language. "The acceleration OF gravity" vs. "the acceleration DUE TO gravity" has been a long-standing rant topic for me too. But I won't get started on it here.
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