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Discussion Forum—A Way with Words, a fun radio show and podcast about language

A Way with Words, a radio show and podcast about language and linguistics.

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If need be
Guest
1
2016/02/02 - 6:09pm
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'If need be'  somehow sounds so wrong to me,  no matter how many times I hear it from no matter how many smart persons.  In casual contexts, it sounds like false sophistication, yet in serious contexts, it sounds like a lapse of standards.  Weird.

Guest
2
2016/02/02 - 10:39pm
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I see it as a contraction of "if there should be a need." It seems natural and efficient. I have no problems with it and use "if need be" often in speech and writing, both casual and formal. Get used to it. It's been around for awhile, peaking near the turn of the 20th century. Ngram.

Guest
3
2016/02/05 - 12:44am
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You might be right there.  I still don't like it.   It sounds most like an attempt at  double-subjunctive,  if there exist such a thing.   A much more natural way to do contraction:    if needed.

   

Guest
4
2016/02/05 - 5:52pm
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I grew up with if need be – doesn't get much more natural than that.

deaconB
744 Posts
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5
2016/02/06 - 5:21am
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tromboniator said
I grew up with if need be – doesn't get much more natural than that.

I've been cogitating on this, and it seems to me that, especially in order texts, I've read if needs be, needs plural rather than need singular.  In my mind, that translates into "if there are such needs as require a particular action, then".

As I find increasingly often, my grey matter is full of crap.  The singular form seems to be far more popular at all times, and seems to have preceded the plural form.  I find it curious that the phrase enjoyed popularity three centuries ago, and one century ago, being much less popular today and two centuries agp. Not the slightest idea why that may be.

And if I may beg your leave, I need to take a brain laxative.  Mayhaps a single malt will do?

Guest
6
2016/02/06 - 12:51pm
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Single malt be just right.

Guest
7
2016/03/05 - 5:56pm
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An idiom that's weird but that I like: it's an adverb made up of an adjective, a preposition, and a conjunction.  As puzzle, what is it?

Guest
8
2016/03/15 - 4:13am
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No one picked up this puzzle because it's too easy or too hard? 

Hint- the order of the 3 words is :  preposition, conjunction, adjective.

The result is used as adverbial phrase, pretty common.

Guest
9
2016/03/15 - 11:43am
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By and large.

Guest
10
2016/03/15 - 4:56pm
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OK, I'll play too. But there's so many that fit the requirements. My guesses: "but then again" "to and fro" "so if true" ???

Guest
11
2016/03/18 - 11:09am
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But you didn't get the adjective in except for "So if true."  And 'so' is adverb.

I take it the parts of speech and their order in "By and large" make it pretty unique.

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