Monkey's Wedding
 
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Monkey's Wedding

Posts: 860
(@emmettredd)
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Joined: 18 years ago

I can get the answer to one riddle--"heroine".


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deaconB
Posts: 745
(@deke)
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On the show, Grant and Martha ignored chiv, and discussed shank without shanking the ball or shank of the evening. Not a criticism; they gave Anita her answer and moved on before listeners got bored. I suppose I can intuit shank of the evening, but I'm perplexed by the origins of shanking the ball.

In any case, chiv apparently comes from the Romani word for knife.  I can't think of any other words that come from that language.  Given their persecuted minority status - I've read that the Romany fared worse in the Holocaust than the jews - I don't think a people trying to remain "invisible" would use terms from their language in speaking other languages, but when one draws a weapon, the masquerade is already over.  What other Romani words have entered our language?

What other languages are most closely related to Romani?

I have read of things being chived away (decades before the Chive website existed), and from context, it's more an erosion, rather than the stabbing or slicing one associates with a sharp weapon. I didn't find this in the dictionaries I checked.  Is this a regional usage, or just too obscure to get lexicographers' attention, or my error in comprehension?

I note that apparently in the UK, it's shiv, rather than chiv.


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Posts: 860
(@emmettredd)
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The OxED has:

chiv(e), n.3 Pronunciation: /t??v/
Thieves' Cant.
A knife.
1673 R. Head Canting Acad. 12 He takes his Chive and cuts us down.
1725 New Canting Dict. Chive, a Knife, File, or Saw.
1819 J. H. Vaux New Vocab. Flash Lang. in Mem. Os-Chives, Bone-handled Knives.
1834 New Monthly Mag. 40 490 The dreadful clasp-knife called a chiv is exposed and used if necessary.
1873 Slang Dict. (at cited word), Chive, a knife..the word is pronounced as though written chiv or chivvy.
1950 R. Chandler Let. 18 May (1966) 78 Chiv, or more commonly shiv, means a knife, a stabbing or cutting weapon, perhaps (but I don't think so) including a razor, but that is not the meaning.
1962 John o' London's 25 Jan. 82/1 A criminal may use…a chiv, which is a razor, knife or dagger.cant, n.1

Since I really did not know 'cant', here is what the OxED says about its etymology:

Pronunciation:
/kænt/
Forms: Also ME–18 kant.

Etymology: Found c1400; rare before 1600. Words identical in form and corresponding in sense are found in many languages, Germanic, Slavonic, Romanic, Celtic. Compare Dutch kant, Middle Dutch cant, border, side, brink, edge, corner, Middle Low German kant (masculine) point, creek, border, also kante (feminine) side, edge, whence modern German kante edge, corner, border, brim, margin; also Dutch and German kante point-lace. (There is no trace of the word in the older stages of Germanic.) Also Old French cant and modern Norman cant, Walloon can side, Spanish canto, Portuguese canto, Italian canto edge, corner, side, medieval Latin cantus corner, side; with which some compare Latin canthus, Greek ?????? corner of the eye, and Latin canthus tire (? felloe) of a wheel, according to Quintilian a ‘barbarous’ word. The Welsh cant edge of the circle, Breton kan?t circle, circumference, which were thought by Diez to represent an original Celtic word, are held by Diefenbach and Thurneysen not to be native; so that at present we cannot go beyond the Romanic canto, and its possible identity with Latin canthus. The Germanic words were probably < Romanic. It is not clear whether the English word was adopted < Old French or from Low German, or, in different senses, from both.

HTH


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deaconB
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Middle Low German kant (masculine) point, creek, border, also kante (feminine) side, edge

Wonder how the middle low Germans pronounced creek.... and whether kant and kante are both dead.  Synchronicity?


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I note that apparently in the UK, it’s shiv, rather than chiv.

I've known shiv (US) probably since the late 1950s (West Side Story?), certainly early 60s, usually referring to a switchblade knife, sometimes a homemade knife, but almost invariably connected with gangs.


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