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I used to have a raft of software programming employees in England (Ipswich), and enjoyed our mutual misapprehensions of the language. (Knocking up a neighbor to ask for a rubber was always a favorite.) (Isn't it too late to ask, then?)
But the incredibly frustrating thing was that, even when they were wrong, I was ineligible to correct the English of the English. Reactions ranged from disinterest or disbelief in my comments to outrage at such cheek. Aarrgh!
Anonymous said:
To me it is most definitely a question, as "Can you guess what I did?" It's not really a command, especially as it's never really followed. I don't know anybody that really tries to guess.
"Guess what?"
"What?"
"Well, today..."
Have you ever been in this scenario?
Guess what (punctuation omitted)
What?
Guess (punctuation omitted)
I can't.
Really. Guess (punctuation omitted)
Glenn said:
Have you ever been in this scenario?
Guess what (punctuation omitted)
What?
Guess (punctuation omitted)
I can't.
Really. Guess (punctuation omitted)
Guess what?
What?
Guess.
I dunno. What??
No really. Guess!
I suppose then at first it's a question, and more forceful each time you repeat.
Anonymous said:
Guess what?
What?I suppose then at first it's a question, and more forceful each time you repeat.
The "What?" is certainly a question. However, the "Guess what" is in no way a question! As noted above, it is an imperative!
Inquiries (except from a parent or a good lawyer) are for those exchanges where the questioner does not know the answer. The speaker of "Guess what" does not want to learn anything - it's a rhetorical attention-getter.
PLEASE use a bang, not a whimper - er, ah, question mark.
Bill 5 said:
Anonymous said:
Guess what?
What?I suppose then at first it's a question, and more forceful each time you repeat.
The "What?" is certainly a question. However, the "Guess what" is in no way a question! As noted above, it is an imperative!
Inquiries (except from a parent or a good lawyer) are for those exchanges where the questioner does not know the answer. The speaker of "Guess what" does not want to learn anything - it's a rhetorical attention-getter.PLEASE use a bang, not a whimper - er, ah, question mark.
No need to insult the question mark. I'm just following the crowd. It's said as a question (with typical interrogatory inflection); it can easily be interpreted as a question (can you guess what happened?); and it is usually punctuated as a question (per Google). So guess what? It's a question. ;p
Which reminds me of a knock-knock joke. No, really. It reminds me of a knock-knock joke in form.
Knock, knock (punctuation omitted)
Who's there?
A punctuation mark.
What punctuation mark?
Ahhhh. Errr. Ummmm. Guess what (punctuation omitted)
In my mind, "knock, knock" functions much like "guess what" in that it is part of a ritual dialog that elicits a highly predictable response. Do the question mark camp think that this should also be punctuated by a question mark because it is intended to elicit a response?
Knock, knock?
Who's there?
A punctuation mark?
…
Glenn said:
Which reminds me of a knock-knock joke. No, really. It reminds me of a knock-knock joke in form.
Knock, knock (punctuation omitted)
Who's there?
A punctuation mark.
What punctuation mark?
Ahhhh … Errr … Ummmm. Guess what (punctuation omitted)In my mind, "knock, knock" functions much like "guess what" in that it is part of a ritual dialog that elicits a highly predictable response. Do the question mark team think that this should also be punctuated by a question mark because it is intended to elicit a response?
Knock, knock?
Who's there?
A punctuation mark?
…
No, no question mark, just a full stop (or period if you like); "Knock, knock" has no real meaning other than the fact that the speaker is telling you a joke and the appropriate reply is "Who's there?"
I suppose that argument could potentially be applied to "Guess what" as well, that its only real meaning is that the speaker said, did or heard something spectacular and the appropriate reply is "What?"
So perhaps we're all wrong and the correct punctuation is a fullstop. 😛
Glenn said:
In my mind, "knock, knock" functions much like "guess what" in that it is part of a ritual dialog that elicits a highly predictable response.
...is exactly what I mean by a semaphore. If the meaning of the phrase can't be extracted by parsing the words and grammar, then it isn't a sentence or question*, it's a semaphore. I know I'm in over my head in this forum, but if there isn't a clear answer, maybe the question is wrong (or that the answer is "Mu").
(*and "Si metrum non habet, non est poema.")
I was very interested to hear the "Who's she, the cat's mother?" item. I'm from Yorkshire and four Great Aunts of mine (all born in the 1890s) used this expression when I referred to an elder and better as 'she'. This is truly a transatlantic turn of phrase. I've sadly not heard it used here in the UK since their generation left us in the 1970s.
The giant spider that Gollum is talking about, that he calls "She" is not necessarily a capitalization of the pronoun "she" but instead perhaps an abbreviation of its name, Shelob. I'm not certain as to whether the gender of the spider is described except by this ambiguous reference (ambiguous as to whether it's an abbreviation or a capitalization of the pronoun)..
ablestmage said:
The giant spider that Gollum is talking about, that he calls "She" is not necessarily a capitalization of the pronoun "she" but instead perhaps an abbreviation of its name, Shelob. I'm not certain as to whether the gender of the spider is described except by this ambiguous reference (ambiguous as to whether it's an abbreviation or a capitalization of the pronoun)..
Shelob is definitely female, and while Gollum worshipped her (see below), I can't find a place where he referred to her as "She". In the narrative, Tolkien does, however:
But other potencies there are in Middle-earth, powers of night, and they are old and strong. And She that walked in the darkness had heard the Elves cry that cry far back in the deeps of time, and she had not heeded it, and it did not daunt her now.
Also:
There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath... Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.
Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Smeagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret.
Here's what I would guess as a Middle Earth geek in good standing: Ungoliant was very powerful, and while of unspecified origin, seems likely to have been a very powerful Maia since she was able to trap Melkor (he had to summon Balrogs to rescue him). Shelob was Ungoliant's daughter, and thus at least partially of the same order of being. Since the Maiar were sometimes treated as gods in Middle earth, it's not surprising that Shelob would be referred to as "She" on occasion. For the few non-geeks who are still reading this: Sauron was a Maia, and his original boss was the evil Vala Melkor (the Maiar were lesser beings who served the Valar). Gandalf and the other wizards, as well as the balrogs, were all Maiar.
I agree that Shelob is conclusively female. And there is a language "proof" of that fact. Tolkien is said to point out in a letter to his son that Shelob's name is formed from she plus lob from an Old English word, lobbe, meaning spider (Middle English loppe). This Old English word lobbe may also figure in the etymology of lobster.
[Edit: added the following]
Confirmed the letter story:
THE LETTERS OF J. R. R. TOLKIEN
A selection edited by
Humphrey Carpenter
with the assistance of
Christopher Tolkien
London
GEORGE ALLEN & UNWIN
70 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford
21 May 1944 (FS 26)
My dearest,
I am afraid I have not written for some time. .... I have taken advantage of a bitter cold grey
week (in which the lawns have not grown in spite of a little rain) to write: but struck a sticky patch.
All that I had sketched or written before proved of little use, as times, motives, etc., have all
changed. However at last with v. great labour, and some neglect of other duties, I have now written
or nearly written all the matter up to the capture of Frodo in the high pass on the very brink of
Mordor. Now I must go back to the other folk and try and bring things to the final crash with some
speed. Do you think Shelob is a good name for a monstrous spider creature? It is of course only
'she+lob' (= spider), but written as one, it seems to be quite noisome. ....
Monday 22 May..... It was a wretched cold day yesterday (Sunday). I worked very hard at my
chapter—it is most exhausting work; especially as the climax approaches and one has to keep the
pitch up: no easy level will do; and there are all sorts of minor problems of plot and mechanism. I
wrote and tore up and rewrote most of it a good many times; but I was rewarded this morning, as
both C.S.L and C.W. thought it an admirable performance, and the latest chapters the best so far.
Gollum continues to develop into a most intriguing character. I was on 'key duty' last night and not
supposed to retire, but did so at 3.30 a.m. A bit tired this morning. And I have to be on all night at
the HQ Post tonight. .... Your own Father.
Glenn said:
I agree that Shelob is conclusively female. And there is a language "proof" of that fact. Tolkien is said to point out in a letter to his son that Shelob's name is formed from she plus lob from an Old English word, lobbe, meaning spider (Middle English loppe). This Old English word lobbe may also figure in the etymology of lobster.
Very interesting - thanks, Glenn!
I found some additional etymological tidbits on Wikipedia:
As Tolkien admitted in a letter to his son, Shelob "is of course only 'she + lob'," - lob being an archaic English word for spider, influenced by Old English loppe or "spider". The word is not related to "cob" nor "cobweb". Old English attercoppe (meaning "spider") is derived from atter meaning "poison" and coppe</em meaning "head"; Tolkien used "attercop" as well as "cob" and "lob" in The Hobbit, where Bilbo Baggins sings songs taunting the giant spiders in Mirkwood: "Attercop, Attercop, Old Tomnoddy" and "Lazy Lob and Crazy Cob".
I don't think that the article is correct about the non-relationship of loppe to "cob" or "cobweb" - and the The Free Dictionary confirms my suspicion.
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